The defeat of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in the Karnataka Assembly election is part of an emerging pattern of people turning against it across the country, Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) chief Sharad Pawar has said.
Mr. Pawar, who will be attending the swearing-in of the Congress government led by Siddaramaiah in Bengaluru on May 20, told The Hindu in an exclusive interview that the defeat of the BJP in 2024 was in the “national interest”, adding that he had no personal ambitions after being in various positions of power for over six decades.
“I have no personal ambition… My only ambition is to bring together parties and provide an alternative to the BJP,” Mr. Pawar said in a candid, exhaustive conversation that spanned the political situation in the country, the leadership of any future non-BJP formation, the Shiv Sena (UBT)-Congress relationship and his nephew Ajit Pawar’s alleged ties with the BJP.
The four-time Maharashtra Chief Minister and former Union Minister said that the BJP had “robbed other parties” to gain power in several States, and it could win through fair means only in a few such as Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh and Assam. “There is no BJP in most parts of the country… not a single State in southern India,” he said.
According to the NCP patriarch, all differences among non-BJP parties can be sorted out once the goal of defeating the incumbent is achieved. Asked whether the Congress would lead any such alliance, Mr. Pawar said: “Whoever gets more numbers will have a legitimate claim…” He said that he was in touch with leaders across the country and planned to attend a meeting of the Opposition that is being planned in Patna.
This is his first interview after he announced his decision to quit as the party’s national president on May 2 and withdrew it three days later.
Edited excerpts:
How do you see the outcome of the Karnataka elections?
I was expecting this. The mood of the people was for change. And certain issues like corruption, inflation and unemployment had affected the people badly under the BJP. That is why I was expecting it.
It is an encouraging development for you in Maharashtra also?
This mood for change is not restricted to Karnataka, it is in most of the States. If you see the country…in Kerala no BJP, in Karnataka no BJP, in Andhra Pradesh no BJP, in Telangana no BJP. In Goa, there was no BJP, though they managed to capture power… In Maharashtra, a group of MLAs of Uddhav Thackeray deserted, and the BJP came into power here. Yes, in Gujarat they have a definitive presence but in Madhya Pradesh, there was the Kamal Nath government, and BJP successfully robbed the Congress party and then Shivraj Chouhan became the CM. Then if you come to Jaipur, no BJP, in UP, yes, there is BJP. In Haryana, if you look at the situation inside, 100%, the BJP will lose in the next election. In Delhi, there is no BJP, in Punjab no BJP, in Rajasthan no BJP, in West Bengal no BJP, no BJP in Bihar. In Himachal, there is no BJP. In Assam yes. So, Assam, UP, and Gujarat are the States where the BJP is in power by winning elections. BJP is in power in many places by robbing other parties. So, Karnataka is following the national pattern. The question is we have to see what happens in parliament elections. If parliament elections happen along these lines, I don’t think it is very convenient for BJP.
And the MVA has become stronger in the last one week in Maharashtra..?
We have to work together. So NCP, Congress and Uddhav Sena, have to go together. Definitely, Karnataka’s results have given us more confidence.
For NCP and Congress, what is the common ground with the Sena in MVA?
What is the problem? When Uddhav became CM, Congress was there, NCP was there. We decided on a Common Minimum Programme, which was the basis of our alliance and government. And we ran it well. To be frank, there is no question of any ideological differences between Congress and NCP because both of them have Gandhi-Nehru ideology. As for Shiv Sena, there are things we need to know. When the Emergency was in place and when Congress lost elections across the country, (Shiv Sena founder) Balasaheb Thackeray supported Indira Gandhi. When no political leader could take such a tough decision, Balasaheb took it. During the Assembly elections that followed, Balasaheb took the decision not to put a single candidate against Congress. After the elections (in 1980) we came to power - I was in Congress – we gave four seats to them (MLC seats to Shiv Sena). Even Balasaheb Sena has worked with Congress, it is not that difficult.
Rahul Gandhi has been a vocal critic of V.D. Savarkar, which is a very sensitive topic in Maharashtra…You discussed this with Mr. Gandhi…
I asked (Congress President) Kharge and Rahul to avoid this subject. He has not said a single word about Savarkar after our conversation.
You told them there is no point in going back and discussing old issues?
Exactly. On the basis of CMP we formed government here, and Uddhav became CM and we started working on that. That is the way forward too.
Are you taking any initiative to talk to other opposition leaders outside Maharashtra?
No, we are discussing. (Bihar Chief Minister) Nitish was here. I also had discussions with Samajwadi Party leader Akhilesh Yadav. We talk. Nitish Kumar suggested we should sit in Patna, all non-BJP party leaders and discuss. I will go to Patna.
Looking at the pattern you described, you are confident that BJP can be beaten in 2024..?
I don’t know, but they should be defeated. There is a temple in Nashik, where a new controversy has been manufactured. There is a practice, of Muslim offering flowers and chaddar to the deity at a temple during Urs festival - they don’t enter the temple, but they offer from outside. Suddenly, someone started a campaign that Muslims were entering the temple and putting the chaddar on Lord Shankar. There is a video, in which you can see that the Muslims are just going up to the gate, but the Deputy Chief Minister and Home Minister (Devendra Fadnavis) has constituted a SIT. BJP workers brought water from Ganga and purportedly cleaned the area… If such things are happening — anywhere in India, and especially in a State like Maharashtra, how can we accept this? It is just one example. So, it is in the national interest, that the BJP should be defeated. In the last three days, suddenly, there are three communal riots in Maharashtra – Akola, Ahmednagar and Nashik. (Shevgaon in Ahmednagar district (clash over a procession) and Akola (clash over a social media post) witnessed severe communal violence for the past one week over. While tension prevailed in Nashik district after a group of Muslims allegedly tried to enter the Shri Trimbakeshwar temple in Nashik. Cases were registered and over 130 people were taken into custody.)
You have had rallies of MVA in Aurangabad, Nagpur and Mumbai. How do you see the response of the public?
The response has been tremendous. However, we have postponed the rallies because it is too hot. After six weeks or so we will start again…
About these rallies, there is a perception that the NCP and the Congress are mobilising the crowd and their leaders are upset that Mr. Thackeray is stealing the show…?
We have decided to go together. This is the relationship between all three, so, I don’t see any problem here.
Seat division among the three partners of MVA might become difficult, as all three have seats that they traditionally contested but are now difficult to get..?
There will be certain seats which we will insist on… But, all three will sit together and decide.
Will there be an equal sharing among the three partners?
We have not discussed this yet. A few days ago, we met at my home. We will discuss and decide how to distribute the seats.
Recently, (West Bengal Chief Minister) Mamata Banerjee and Akhilesh Yadav said that wherever Congress is weak, they should not contest, and support whoever is strong…
I’m a person, who thinks we have to sit together and discuss all these issues. These are their views I have also read this in newspapers. I have not personally talked to or heard from these leaders. But, we have to sit together.
Basically, it is my earnest desire that all parties come together, if there are certain issues, try to resolve them, and provide viable alternatives at the national level. I feel there are many leaders from different States and different parties. Some of them have personal interests or party interests. I have the party’s interest. I have contested 14 elections and successfully won all the seats have contested, and for the past 56 years, I’m either in Vidhan Sabha, Lok Sabha, or Rajya Sabha. After getting such a long period, for me, I should try to let others lead.
So, you are indicating that you don’t have personal ambitions?
No, I have no personal ambition. My only ambition is to bring together parties and provide an alternative to the BJP.
In 2004 you were one of the key leaders who came together to form the UPA. Is the situation now comparable to what was in 2003?
At that time there was a leader like Atal Bihari Vajpayee, a thorough gentleman and there was the slogan, India Shining. There was a feeling among the opposition that they have no future. So, a few of our colleagues said don’t worry, we will fight and see...We came to power, and I myself was in government which continued for 10 years.
In Maharashtra, there has been chatter about how the Centre is shifting projects to Gujarat…Favouring one State over the other…
Basically, those who are leading at the national level have to see all States equally and should have a national outlook. They have to treat every State equally and they can’t be biased.
What could be the main issues that will be raised against the BJP in the coming months?
All these issues that we discussed… When the head of the nation comes to a State and starts his campaigning by saying ‘Jai Bajrangbali and Bajrangbali ki jai’…? BJP is opposed to secularism. Corruption has reached unprecedented levels…People could connect with the “40 % commission” campaign in Karnataka. Unemployment, BJP’s hostility to minorities..these are all issues.
Many CMs and regional parties feel that the BJP is centralising power and damaging federalism…?
In fact, all those who think about this nation are worried. There are various States, but the approach of the BJP government in Delhi is to protect the interest of certain States. Maharashtra now has a BJP government, but otherwise, not a single state in Southern India has a BJP government. No State is happy. Delhi, Punjab…Tamil Nadu…
You resigned as NCP president and then decided to continue…
I was thinking about it for almost a year..that I had to stop somewhere. As I said, 56 years in parliament and Assembly. I said I would resign but work for the party. I have to accept that my judgement had gone wrong. I thought I would convince, but I could not. I want to promote youngsters in party. In 1990, I took the decision to induct several youngsters into the State cabinet, including current NCP Maharashtra unit chief Jayant Patil who was made finance minister. RR Patil was made Home Minister. And there were others.
In some of the meetings on opposition coordination, apparently, there was a discussion on the 1996 model or the 2004 model —in the first the Congress supported a Front from outside; in the second Congress became the leading party. How do you see the role of Congress as in some states Congress and these parties are in a direct contest like in Telangana, Kerala, and West Bengal?
In fact, there is general thinking among all leaders that let’s not open this subject now. We should work together and defeat the BJP. Then sit together. Honestly, my thinking is whichever party has comfortable numbers…PMship should be discussed at that point…And those who get more numbers, it is their legitimate right to claim. If I am getting 20 seats, how can I claim the PM’s post?
Nitish Kumar’s name has come up as the convener of the alliance..?
No. ..Frankly, there is no official suggestion and we have not discussed.
Nitish Kumar said he would be delighted to have you as the PM ..?
(Laughs)
Your nephew, NCP leader Ajit Pawar is reportedly very friendly with the BJP...Do you fear a split in the NCP?
He is not friendly with BJP. BJP is using all types of tactics, and all agencies to attack opposition, not only NCP. He is the Leader of the Opposition, and it is the BJP that is spreading all these rumours. He will never go with the BJP.
Do you think Uddhav Thackeray will retain the popular support of the Shiv Sena?
MLAs have deserted Uddhav, but not Shiv Sainiks. Sainiks are eager to teach those who deserted him a lesson.
You came out in support of industrialist Gautam Adani who is being questioned by the Congress... Do you think that will be of any consequence for opposition unity?
We have certain important projects in the State. The Dharavi slum redevelopment project. It’s a big project and providing pucca houses for the weaker section. His company is generating power since 2002, his company runs Mumbai airport and the tender has gone to him and work has started. There are ports and other infra projects…
Do you think it will be a bipolar contest in Maharashtra between the two alliances -MVA and Shinde Sena-BJP?
I don’t know. I can’t say now. But in Karnataka didn’t happen. A person like Devagowda-ji could not hold on… Voters have taken a decision that they should stay with those who can defeat the BJP.
