A LABOUR MSP has struggled to defend Andy Burnham’s decision to reject a second Scottish independence referendum if he becomes prime minister during a heated BBC radio appearance.
In a meeting with Scottish Labour MPs last week, Burnham said he is “not willing to consider” a second vote, despite his support for further devolution, according to the Mail on Sunday.
According to polling by Norstat Scots in June, Scots would vote for independence by 52% to 48% if there were a second vote on the constitution. In April, the Diffley Partnership also predicted that Scots would vote for independence by 52% to 48%.
Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland Breakfast show on Monday, Labour MSP Paul Sweeney was quizzed by Martin Geissler whether Burnham’s decision not to consider a second referendum was democratic.
The BBC host said: “Scottish Labour slump to a fifth successive election defeat in Scotland. Andy Burnham comes in and says, yes, local democracy, devolution right across the country. But, not an independence referendum in Scotland, despite, once again, the electorate here demonstrating emphatically that they approve of that.
“Is this democracy at work?”
Sweeney replied: “Um, well, my analysis of the recent Scottish Parliament election was that actually support for the Scottish National Party declined.
“Ah, we had a drop in seven seats.”
Geissler replied: “Pro-independence majority in the Parliament. That's one very clear measure.”
Sweeney replied: “And it was not a pro majority share of the vote, uh, and also, um, it declined the election and also that was not in the SNP's manifesto.
The pair then start to talk over each other as Geissler tries to challenge Sweeney on what he just said, but the Labour MSP continued to talk about polling in the last election.
Sweeney then said: “We go back to this issue, time and time again when it's actually a minority pursuit.
Geissler “Well, is it? Polls suggest that over 50% now believe in independence at one point or another.”
Sweeney replied: “That's not my reading of the average polling.”
The BBC host interjected: “What is your reading? Low 50s, isn't it?”
Sweeney replied: “Well, I've seen it as a minority in the average tracking.”
Geissler then said: “But I think there's a sense now that certainly it's 50-50 or nudging slightly over. We're certainly at that stage.
“Is it democratic of Andy Burnham to say, just, just no chance? Is it sensible of him to say?”
Sweeney then replied: “Well, I think what people want and what really came across at the last election was that Scottish independence wasn't really featuring in the discourse at all.
“It was about public services, putting the Scottish party back to work for the people of Scotland that was pushing.
“Public service reform, that's what people are frustrated by.”
Geissler then quizzed the MSP on whether he believed Scotland was in a voluntary union and, if so, what would be the mechanism to leave it. Sweeney said: “There needs to be a settled view on what that looks like right now. There isn't.
“Certainly there isn't anywhere near sustained majority support.”
Sweeney went on to claim there was no “sustained majority” in polling for Scottish independence being over 60%, a benchmark within the movement which is seen as overwhelming support to trigger a second referendum.
The Labour MSP also went on to claim that support for independence has fallen in the popular vote share in the last Holyrood election, despite a majority of pro-independence MSPs being returned to parliament.
“We've seen the number of seats decline for the SNP. So I just don't see where this overwhelming sort of clamour for secession comes from,” Sweeney said.
Geissler: “Well, from the polls, perhaps.”
Sweeney cut off the BBC host to add: “Nowhere near a sustained majority of support.
“So it's a very dangerous view that you want to drag the country back into this.”
Geissler then replied: “But then you have to get a framework, right? That everybody agrees on.”
The BBC host then referred to a letter to the First Minister, first reported by the Sunday National, by a former policy officer for the party, Tony Giugliano, that called for three key things to form part of an “ambitious new strategy” that breaks the constitutional deadlock.
One of these points is to establish a constitutional convention to agree within two years the mechanism for a referendum.
Giugliano argued in his letter to Swinney that trade unions, local government, businesses, faith groups and civil society should come together to agree the terms that would trigger an independence referendum.
“Its purpose should be to agree, within two years, a democratic, lawful and credible route to independence that commands support beyond any single political party,” Giugliano said.
“A mechanism developed and endorsed by civic Scotland would carry a legitimacy that no UK Government could easily dismiss.”
Geissler asked Sweeney if there was any “leeway” with Scottish Labour attending such a convention and “embracing” the discussion around the constitution in a “positive way”.
“Well, I've said I'm open-minded to those sorts of meaningful and more thoughtful approaches that aren't just as constant, facile, binary sort of demand,” Sweeney said.
He added: “I think it goes beyond simply the question of independence.
“I think it goes beyond to where do we think power should lie within Scotland? What the regional constructs look like?
“Should the Scottish parliament have a requirement to protect more local and regional structures of government in Scotland, as well as simply pulling more power to the centres it has been over the last 25 years to the detriment.”
