State witness Jonathan Dowdall has confirmed that he said to Gerry Hutch “yis never did the Regency” during a bugged 10 hour conversation.
In what was his seventh day being grilled in the witness box, Dowdall, who alleges Hutch previously confessed in a park to him about shooting David Byrne, admitted that in this taped conversation, he said the Hutches weren’t involved.
Gerry Hutch (59) is charged with the murder of Kinahan cartel associate David Byrne (33) in Dublin’s Regency Hotel on February 5, 2016 - a charge he denies.
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And after a lengthy back-and-forth on Tuesday, Dowdall was played a portion of a bugged conversation between him and the accused in which he says “Yis never done the Regency.”
Asked by Defence Counsel Brendan Grehan SC if he meant the Hutches in this exchange, Dowdall said that was right.
The prosecution and Mr Dowdall allege that Hutch told him in a park in Whitehall, Dublin a month prior to this bugged conversation that he and James ‘Mago’ Gately shot David Byrne in the Regency.
On Tuesday Dowdall was heavily cross-examined on several portions of the conversation between him and Hutch, which was secretly recorded by the Garda National Surveillance Unit in March 2016.
Throughout the day Mr Grehan would allege that Dowdall was the one urging Gerry Hutch to have people “whacked” while he argued that the accused was clearly looking for peace.
At the beginning of the day Mr Grehan said he was hoping to “pick up the pace” of his cross examination after seven days of questioning the witness, who has become increasingly frustrated at how long he has been in court.
Mr Dowdall has frequently raised the amount of time he’s been questioned, saying he was “seven days here” and ending the day directly asking the Judge how much longer this would go on.
However presiding Judge Ms Justice Tara Burns told Dowdall that she had no control over the matter and that he would be here for as long as Mr Grehan needed him for cross-examination.
In a section of the tapes played before the court Gerry Hutch can be heard saying to Dowdall that there “has to be another way” after he had told him there had been too many shootings.
The pair are discussing mediation and that things have gone too far - and Dowdall is heard to say that the Kinahans had “messed with the wrong c*nt.”
In another clip Dowdall is heard telling Hutch that “I wouldn't leave them loose Gerard” after Hutch had just told him that he “wouldn’t like to see anyone else injured.”
The former Sinn Fein councillor goes further and says that the likes of Kinahan cartel associate Trevor Byrne “and all are bleedin liabilities Gerard.”
Mr Grehan put it to Dowdall in court that he seems to have a “very firm view that you wouldn’t leave them loose.”
But Dowdall said it was Hutch who had actually raised the subject of the six hitmen he’s referring to in the first place.
Pressed about this further Dowdall said he doesn’t even know the people he’s talking about here - such as Trevor Byrne - a man who he had earlier suggested be bombed in his own home.
Dowdall is also heard to suggest in the audio that if the Kinahan’s are “hit hard enough,” a solution can perhaps be found.
Challenged on this in court, Dowdall said he didn’t know what he was saying here.
Mr Grehan also quizzed the witness on whether he was aware that Hutch was hard of hearing, after the court heard Dowdall talk about the use of the “yokes” in the Regency.
Dowdall, who says the “yokes” he’s referring to are the three AK-47 rifles used in the hotel shooting said he was aware of this - while also telling the court that he doesn’t know anything about guns.
The court was played a section of the audio where Dowdall tells Hutch that the use of the “yokes” was a “massive statement.”
Mr Grehan put it to the witness that throughout this entire exchange with Hutch, the accused doesn’t use the word ‘we’ when talking about those involved in the Regency incident - instead using the word ‘they.’
Later in the day Dowdall was challenged about long sections of the audio where he talks about some of the republican figures he and Hutch were meeting - such as ‘Fish’ - IRA man Shane Rowan, who was later caught with the AK47s used in the Regency.
There is also reference to Michael ‘Fluff’ Gallagher - who Dowdall is heard claiming made a call to the parents of murder victim David Byrne.
However, when challenged about this Dowdall said that it was Gerry Hutch who had told him this.
Later the court was played an exchange between Dowdall and Hutch after they had just met with Shane Rowan and others in Donegal - and where they discussed that meeting.
Briefly Dowdall is heard speaking to an individual only identified as ‘Wee’ - and Mr Grehan said it appeared from the audio that the witness was “giving him orders.”
Dowdall firmly denied this and said he was talking to Wee about “stopping the feud.” He also said that Mr Grehan’s suggestion that he was “calling the shots” was ridiculous.
He added that at this point in time he was nervous that the people they had met up north somehow believed that he was responsible for ‘Flat Cap’ - Kevin Murray - one of the gunmen involved in the Regency Hotel attack.
Dowdall told the court that he was afraid he would get shot over this - and he is heard saying to Hutch on the audio that he fears they may think he had involvement with Murray.
Kevin Murray subsequently died from motor neurone disease before he was set to be extradited from Northern Ireland to face charges over the Regency in the south.
In this part of the audio Hutch can be heard referring to the men they just met as “the three queen bees” while Dowdall calls them “braindead.”
He also alleges that “Fluff” Gallagher once shot the father of Michael Barr - who was subsequently shot dead as part of the feud.
There was also a part of the audio heard by the court in which Dowdall jokes with Hutch about what would happen if the “yokes” given to the men up north were found.
Hutch is heard saying that they would probably say there were trackers in them.
Asked about the exchange on Tuesday, Dowdall dismissed it, saying it was just “sinister banter” and that they were “messing.”
Brendan Grehan SC put it to the witness that he was suggesting having people shot dead when he brings up the six alleged hitmen who murdered Eddie Hutch - a brother of the accused.
Dowdall became annoyed at this and said that the senior barrister was just bringing up “the same thing over and over again.”
The witness insisted that he was volunteering to Hutch people he didn’t even know and said if he was serious “I’d at least know their names.”
It was put to him by Mr Grehan that even though he says they were going up north for a supposed peace deal, Dowdall was offering up names of people who needed to be killed in order for there to be peace.
He called out a portion of the tape where Dowdall calls for two people to go down and that this would be part of the deal.
But Dowdall insisted that “there was no deal” and “the rest was sh*t talk.”
Becoming frustrated again, Dowdall said that Grehan was just “taking out certain little things” from a 10 hour audio and focusing in on things “to make me look terrible.”
Mr Grehan said that in these exchanges it appears to be saying he can get people in the IRA “to kill a few people close to the Kinahans,” specifically people they believed to be hitmen.
Dowdall responded by saying that that was “the way it looks” from the audio, but again insisted there was no plot to murder anyone.
The witness said that a particular thing he says in the tapes is actually a reference to the Regency.
The quote, in which Dowdall says to Hutch that he has “more balls than any c*nt,” he now claimed was a reference to the Regency.
But Mr Grehan accused Dowdall of being “opportunistic” in suggesting this now - and said it was clearly a reference to something Hutch had only just said to him.
Hutch had only just told Dowdall it would be easy for him to kill a brother of Johnny Cunningham in Spain - but that he wouldn’t.
Hence Mr Grehan said that Dowdall was again engaged in “a lie.”
The court was also played lengthy sections of the tapes where Dowdall talks to Hutch about how he’d “f*ck a door in” and how certain people were clowns.
Like much of what was put to him about the tapes, Dowdall told the court that this was just nonsense and he didn’t really mean any of it.
He dismissed most of what he said on the tapes as being “bravado,” “sh*te talk” and only for the purposes of trying to impress Hutch or to tell him “what I thought he wanted to hear.”
Mr Grehan put it to the witness that he isn’t all just talk - and that there are things he actually does.
He followed that up by suggesting to the witness that he might have to play him art of the video tape he made of torturing Alexander Hurley in his home.
The court also heard a section of the tape where Hutch again speaks about a peace deal.
In it Dowdall asks if Hutch could see mobster Thomas ‘Bomber’ Kavanagh accepting it.
Hutch says he could but says he heard that “Bomber’s bird is a c*nt” and adds that it would be “up to Jemmie Byrne to accept it.”
Asked about this exchange Dowdall again stated that he did not know Bomber Kavanagh.
The trial continues.
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