“Manchester United are currently bottom of their Champions League group while being its top scorers with 12 goals in five games. Has a team top-scored in a group at a major tournament and also finished bottom? And has any team managed the same feat over an entire league season?” asks Paul Vickers.
Manchester United’s miserable 1-0 defeat to Bayern Munich meant they finished last in Group A despite being the top scorers: United 12, Bayern 12, Galatasaray 10, Copenhagen 8. As Dirk Maas points out, it’s not the first time this has happened in the Champions League era, with Monaco (in 2000-01) and Roma (2002-03) both members of this unwelcome trivia club.
Monaco’s story has been the subject of a previous Knowledge question. Sturm Graz lost 5-0 to both Monaco and Rangers, yet still qualified ahead of them both. Monaco scored 13 goals in six games, which is the highest total we can find for a team that finished bottom while also being top scorers.
Roma’s 2002-03 Champions League campaign was a story of less being more. In the first group stage they qualified despite only scoring three goals in six games (AEK Athens, who finished third, hit seven.) That put them into a tight, low-scoring group that also included Valencia, Ajax and Arsenal. Roma scored seven goals, almost half of which came in a 13-minute purple patch during their only victory – a 3-0 romp away to Valencia.
Brendan O’Mahony offers Serbia, who were the top scorers in Group G at last year’s World Cup but finished last because they haemorrhaged them at the other end. We think that’s the only time it has happened at the World Cup, men’s or women’s though USSR (1990) and Italy (2010) were joint-top scorers who finished bottom of their group in the men’s version.
The same was true of Argentina at the 1979 Copa América, despite the best efforts of a young Diego Maradona, and Zimbabwe at the 2004 Africa Cup of Nations. Zimbabwe were outright top scorers in Group B at the 2021 Afcon with three goals in three games. Their inability to keep a clean sheet meant they finished bottom.
The most common answer to this question is incorrect, but it falls under “trivia that’s too good not to mention again and again and again”. In 1937-38, as the defending champions Manchester City were the top-scorers in Division One with 80 goals in 42 games. They also finished second bottom and were relegated. The now defunct concept of Cityitis was born.
Chris Roe, whose database of English football results can answer questions we didn’t know existed, says there has never been a case of a team finishing bottom of the league while also being top scorers. Weirdly, the closest was in the same season that City were relegated – the team that did finish last, West Brom, were fourth-highest scorers in the league, with 74.
That 1937-38 Division One table is a reminder of how competitive English football could be in the 20th century. Only 16 points separated the champions Arsenal and West Brom in 22nd – and even if there had been three points for a win, only 25 points would have separated top and bottom. In last year’s Premier League, the gap was 64 points. It’s the most competitive league in the world.
Doubling up on names in the dugout
“Bristol Rovers have just hired Matt Taylor as their new manager, which makes him the second League One manager with that name – the other is at Shrewsbury. The clubs are scheduled to play each other on 1 April 2024. If the two Matt Taylors are still in a job, would it be the first fixture in which both managers have the same name?” wonders Tom Aldous.
Turns out it wouldn’t even be the first fixture involving two Matt Taylors, as Dan Almond points out.
@TheKnowledge_GU Already happened in October 2021 when they (Matt Taylor) met as Exeter City and Walsall managers. It also happened in 1978 when one Bobby Campbell faced another when Chelsea played Bristol Rovers. pic.twitter.com/VjjB0yNgci
— Dan Almond (@ferrararabbi) December 6, 2023
A number of you also mentioned multiple meetings between Wrexham manager Phil Parkinson and Altrincham manager Phil Parkinson from 2021-23.
Finally, a meeting between two men with the same name: senior and junior, father and son. “On 13 February 1971, Bristol Rovers managed by Bill Dodgin Sr played Fulham managed by Bill Dodgin Jr,” writes Hugh Mellett. “Rovers lost 1-0. I was there. For the return fixture, Fulham made a special one-off programme cover.”
Who has the best xG flex?
“After Bayern’s thumping 5-1 defeat by Eintracht Frankfurt, Thomas Tuchel pleaded that his team won the xG. Is this the biggest defeat a team has suffered while ‘winning’ on xG?” asks Crispin Leyser.
xG isn’t an exact science, so it varies – sometimes wildly, but let’s not dwell on that or the whole edifice might collapse – from source to source, but the comprehensive Sofascore website had the Expected Score as Eintracht Frankfurt 1.32-2.08 Bayern Munich.
This subject is loosely related to a recent question on teams who were thrashed despite dominating possession. One of the games cited there is also relevant here. Brighton suffered a similar fate to Bayern at the end of last season, losing 5-1 at home to Everton. The xG in that game was 3.26-2.28 in their favour.
We’ve found another game that tops those two for xG violation. At the start of last season, Schalke 04 lost 6-1 at home to Union Berlin despite a comfortable xG superiority: 1.92 to 1.13.
A 1-6 moral victory is the best we can find. If you can top that, please get in touch.
Damage-free deductions
“With points deductions becoming more common, have any teams suffered a deduction which had no effect on their final position in the table?” wonders David Hill.
On 20 October 1990, the simmering resentment between Manchester United and Arsenal manifested itself in a spectacular royal rumble involving 20 players and a few coaching stuff. It was the second of three Battles of Old Trafford involving Arsenal between 1987 and 2003, but the only one that led to a points deduction.
The clubs lost one and two points respectively (Arsenal’s punishment was greater because of a similar incident against Norwich the previous season), and the Arsenal defender David O’Leary said the FA had “as good as handed the title to Anfield”. In fact, it fuelled a siege mentality that drove Arsenal to a glorious and criminally underrated triumph: they lost only one game all season and won the league comfortably.
During their title party – a bank holiday Monday evening game with, yep, Manchester United – the Higjhbury crowd gleefully sang-: “You can stick your effing two points up your arse!” United’s final position of sixth was also unaffected by the deduction. Here’s how the final table looked.
A couple of other examples are worth a mention. A star-studded Juventus won Serie B in 2006-07 despite a nine-point deduction, and a star-gutted Portsmouth would have finished bottom of the Premier League in 2009-10 even without losing nine points after the club went into administration.
The shortest answer in Knowledge history
Out of interest, when was the last time two managerless teams played each other? Especially as both are #scfc @TheKnowledge_GU
— Ian Parkes (@Parksy) December 12, 2023
Saturday. Rotherham and Swansea 🤣
— Massimo Osti (@BarryPotter1863) December 12, 2023
Knowledge archive
“Nuno Espírito Santo won the manager of the month award for August, but just 52 days later, he was sacked,” wrote Derek Robertson in 2021. “Is this a Premier League record or has someone else had an even more precipitous fall from grace?”
Such is the thirst for change in some club boardrooms, Nuno’s rapid descent from August’s best Premier League manager to unemployment can be beaten. Let’s start at Sheffield Wednesday in 2000, where on 1 February Danny Wilson received the Premier League manager of the month award. Just 49 days later, on 21 March, he was cast out in the cold having won only one in six.
On 6 February 2013 Reading’s Brian McDermott was named manager of the month for January. “We’ve given ourselves a real chance of league survival,” beamed McDermott. Four straight defeats and 33 days later, McDermott was given his marching orders. Predictably, Reading went on to be relegated.
We really ought to take a look at Chelsea, though. The winds of change blow fiercely in SW6. Claudio Ranieri was sacked 59 days after winning the March award in 2004, so quick but not quick enough. Success at this time of year would appear to be deadly for Chelsea managers. Rafael Benítez won the April award in 2013 and was let go on 28 May after winning the Europa League, though he was only ever an interim manager, as Blues fans were so fond of reminding him. Five years earlier, Avram Grant was handed the April 2008 award on 9 May and was tossed out of Stamford Bridge a mere 16 days later (25 May) after the Blues finished second, two points behind Manchester United. Surely, no one can beat that?
No, but the same club can equal it. Carlo Ancelotti was named manager of the month for April on 6 May 2011, with the Premier League panel being impressed after Chelsea’s “three consecutive home wins over Birmingham, West Ham and Tottenham” gave them “momentum into their pivotal match with the league leaders” Manchester United. They lost 2-1 and after a draw with Newcastle and a defeat at Everton, the champions finished second to United. Ancelotti was sent packing on 22 May, 16 days later. Had the Premier League not handed Ancelotti the award as early in the month as they did, then the Italian could have won this Knowledge segment instead of sharing the honour with Grant.
Four years later, history repeated itself for poor Carlo. He was sent packing by second-placed Real Madrid on 25 May, having received April’s La Liga manager of the month award on 7 May – a gap of only 18 days.
Can you help?
was watching ice hockey recently and came across the concept of the Gordie Howe hat trick (we also immediately named our quiz team this) – one goal, one assist and one fight in a single game. surely there must be football contenders for this too
— Kat 🦁 (@byekitty) December 12, 2023
“Botafogo had 13-point lead in the Campeonato Brasileiro Série A, but collapsed and finished fifth. Has a team ever thrown away a bigger lead?” asks Jack Tanner.
The FAW have just hit Pontypridd Utd with a 141 point penalty for various offences, 6 effective immediately, the rest suspended for two years provided the club don’t field another ineligible player. Is this a record?
— Dave Chamberlain (@Dave19aber) December 12, 2023
“Nine outfield players scored or assisted for Fulham in their 5-0 win over West Ham on Sunday. Has a team ever had 10 or more different players do so in a single game?” asks Simon Phillips.
I was watching a pair of goalies warm up the other day by biffing crosses at each other. Each managed to get their crosses to the edge of the 6-yard box at a headable height, and the question occured to me: has a goalie ever taken a corner in a 1st class, competitive match?
— Chesterfield Football History (@cfchistory_com) December 12, 2023
“As I’m currently feeling giddy at seeing my beloved Aston Villa so high in the table, my mind was cast back to the last half-decent team the club assembled under Martin O’Neill. A number of players from that era went on to win the Premier League with other clubs: Gareth Barry and James Milner with Manchester City, Ashley Young (Manchester United), Gary Cahill (Chelsea) and Marc Albrighton (Leicester City). This can’t be unique, so what are other examples of a team scattering and half of it finding success elsewhere?” asks Nayson Ratcliffe.
Mark Bonner was sacked by Cambridge United just 76 days after signing a new "long-term" deal.
— Ernest Thesiger (@ErnestThesiger1) December 12, 2023
I know new managers have been sacked after less time but has any incumbent boss ever been sacked so soon after signing a new deal? https://t.co/AUh1nQI0tl
“On the weekend of 2-3 December, there were scorelines of 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-2, 3-3 and 4-3 in the Premier League. “Has there ever been a longer sequence of scorelines with no more than one goal between the sides?” asks Bob Inglis.
Hodgson is the oldest manager in EPL history. Is he also the oldest one in whole english top-flight history?
— Alex Shwartser (@lemmacantor11) December 12, 2023
“In the recent game versus Chelsea, Brighton & Hove Albion had four teenage starters – Evan Ferguson, Jack Hinshelwood, Facundo Buonanotte and Carlos Baleba – who were born after the date that substitute James Milner made his Premier League debut. Is this some kind of record?” asks Robin Burchfield.
Luton, Burnley and Sheffield United all already look like going down. What's the earliest in the season that all three / four relegation places have been confirmed?
— James Kirk (@1fckirk) December 12, 2023
Mail us your questions or tweet @TheKnowledge_GU. Festive special next week
