When Donald Trump claimed victory in the 2024 US election, he and his inner circle gathered on stage at the Palm Beach County Convention Center to thank and praise his faithful supporters: the voters, Melania Trump, his campaign staff and various other backers. But a more surprising group was singled out by Trump’s longtime friend Dana White: “I want to thank the Nelk Boys, Adin Ross, Theo Von, Bussin’ With The Boys, and last but not least, the mighty and powerful Joe Rogan.”
The moment was a testament to the success of Trump’s campaign media strategy. The president-elect effectively sidelined mainstream outlets in favour of alternative channels like celebrity podcasts and the livestreaming platform Twitch. His 2024 campaign pioneered podcasts as a major communication format in the same way he had with Twitter in 2016.
The influencers who host these shows are public personalities with sway over large audiences. Many of them are sympathetic to Trump’s political message. By appearing on their shows, Trump effectively secured their personal endorsement and a direct line to their loyal fan bases.
Trump appeared on 14 major podcasts or streams during the campaign. This included The Joe Rogan Experience, Logan Paul’s Impaulsive and Theo Von’s This Past Weekend – all shows with predominantly male audiences. Combined, these appearances amassed 68.7 million YouTube views, and many more on other social media platforms.
To a lesser degree, Kamala Harris employed a similar strategy. She appeared on the podcasts Call Her Daddy with Alex Cooper (the second biggest podcast on Spotify after Rogan), Club Shay Shay with NFL legend Shannon Sharpe and All The Smoke with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. These shows are all popular with two of her main target demographics: young women and black men. They supplemented her appearances on mainstream broadcast programmes.
Harris turned down an offer to appear on Rogan’s podcast a fortnight out from the election, and it has been reported that the campaign’s fears of a progressive backlash formed part of the reason.
While Rogan’s audience is mostly young and male (a prime audience for Trump’s campaign), the host’s allegiance to one party or the other is not a foregone conclusion. In 2020, he endorsed Bernie Sanders for president after Sanders appeared on the podcast. This year, Rogan endorsed Trump the day before the election.
Partisan interviews
Podcasts have a very different character from traditional news interviews. They are often partisan interviews that breach journalistic norms of neutrality and objectivity.
Podcast hosts often display their own readings of politics, and commonly draw on their personal and emotional responses to politicians in a way that a dispassionate journalistic interviewer is not permitted to.
They tend to opt for more of a friendly chat than aggressive questioning, using what research calls supportive interactional behaviour: expressing agreement, displaying active listening (hm, umm, yeah, go on), and laughing and nodding along with politicians. This “softball” questioning can result in the host becoming an accomplice to the politicians’ positive self-presentation rather than an interrogator.
These interviews also have a long and relatively uncontrolled format in which nearly anything can be discussed. This is well-suited to Trump’s rambling, often unfocused, says-whatever-he’s-thinking conversational style.
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Podcasts appeal to candidates as a lower-risk, more feel-good alternative to news interviews. Hosts are more likely to ask them about their childhood pets or the leadership lessons their parents taught them, than use aggressive accountability questioning designed to provide close scrutiny of their policy agenda. Their guests become personal storytellers whose thoughts, emotions and personalities are brought to the fore above issues of current affairs.
On Call Her Daddy, Harris discussed her relationship with her single mother and the values she had instilled in her growing up. When the interview did focus on policy, notably reproductive rights and abortion, Harris received little pushback from Cooper about how she would achieve her goal of reversing the effects of the overturning of Roe v Wade in policy terms.
In Harris’s own words, the podcast allowed her “to be real, you know, and to talk about the things that people really care about”.
Trump was very comfortable in this setting, appearing as one of the “bros”. In his conversation with Theo Von, Trump turned the tables and started asking Von questions about his experience of addiction, coming across as genuinely curious and emotionally attuned to Von’s struggles.
A side effect of this friendly demeanour and overall lack of adversarialism was that hosts did not call Trump out when he brazenly lied on issues such as vaccinations and electoral fraud. For instance, when Trump told Rogan, “I didn’t lose”, referring to the 2020 election result, Rogan just laughed and smiled. Trump left these interviews completely unscathed, having ridden out a series of softball, feel-good conversations that played well with his base.
Are podcasts a problem?
Traditional candidate interviews are meant to be combat zones, where journalists and politicians spar over key issues. They are democracy in action – and should be serious and focused on policy, political record and suitability for office – everything these podcasts are not.
There is value in getting to know politicians better as everyday people outside of politics. But this can become a problem when podcasts flood the media landscape or fully replace meaningful media scrutiny (as was the case in this election).
Outside of the debates, Trump’s only appearances on broadcast news were on Fox, a network favourable to him. Harris participated more in traditional interviews, including CBS’s long-running 60 Minutes, a programme Trump initially agreed to take part in before dropping out. But she was still criticised for not doing enough media interviews.
Candidates must meet voters where they are. By avoiding podcasts like Rogan’s and not addressing audiences beyond her immediate political base, Harris and the Democrats failed to do that. This allowed Trump to take full advantage of Rogan’s platform without any resistance.
It is likely that podcasts will start to play more of a role in future campaigns. Candidates should not be afraid to open themselves up to questioning from podcast hosts who don’t necessarily share their views. Imagine a world where Harris appeared on Joe Rogan and Trump appeared on Call Her Daddy. That could add some spice to electoral processing and re-enliven the political conversation.
It is certainly more appealing than the alternative – where political conversations become increasingly insular, with groups talking among themselves and no one reaching across the political aisle, further entrenching the divides of a highly partisan alternative media landscape.
Maxwell Modell receives funding from the ESRC.
This article was originally published on The Conversation. Read the original article.
