Last Thursday, Stuart Rhodes, the founder of the right-wing paramilitary "militia" group the Oath Keepers, was sentenced to 18 years in prison by a federal court for the crime of seditious conspiracy in connection to the Jan. 6 coup attempt. It is the most serious punishment yet for those who have been convicted of participating in Trump's coup attempt.
Given the law, Rhodes was lucky to receive an 18-year sentence – that he will appeal. Rhodes is unrepentant and believes that he is a "victim" of a "conspiracy." He considers himself a "patriot," and ultimately a "hero" in a larger struggle to "save" democracy. During his sentencing, Rhodes told the judge, "I'm a political prisoner and like President Trump, my only crime is opposing those who are destroying our country."
Stuart Rhodes is much more than one person, an infamous name who rose to public attention because of Jan. 6 and who will quickly be forgotten by the news media and general public, both of whom possess a very limited attention span. In reality, people like Stuart Rhodes represent the larger existential threat to American democracy posed by the Republican fascists, the MAGAites, and their collective forces.
Jason Van Tatenhove possesses a unique understanding of Stuart Rhodes, the Oath Keepers "militia", and the larger right-wing militant antigovernment movement. For several years beginning in 2014, Tatenhove served as the national media director for the Oath Keepers. In that role, he became a close friend and confidante of Rhodes. Tatenhove himself rose to national prominence because of his courageous decision to publicly testify before the House Select Committee on Jan. 6.
Tatenhove documented his experiences with the Oath Keepers in his book "The Perils of Extremism: How I Left the Oath Keepers and Why We Should be Concerned about a Future Civil War". He is currently finishing his fourth title; a cyberpunk meets western speculative fiction novel that explores the concepts related to a shattered nation after a neofascist takeover and second civil war.
In this conversation, Tatenhove explains what he learned about Rhodes, the human being and leader, and how the latter became such an influential figure among the right-wing militant extremist movement. Tatenhove also reflects on his friendship with Stuart Rhodes – who lived with Tatenhove for almost a year – and how Rhodes followed a typical path of radicalization, which included frustrations and life disappointments that eventually brought him to Jan. 6. Tatenhove warns that contrary to being in any way deterred or broken, Stuart Rhodes is now a "rockstar" among right-wing extremists and "the movement".
As they have already signaled, if Trump or DeSantis or another such neofascist takes power Rhodes and the other Jan. 6 terrorists will likely be pardoned. Tatenhove sounds the alarm that if such a nightmare scenario were to occur, Rhodes and the other senior leaders of the Oath Keepers and the militant right will hold positions of great power that they will use as enforcers for the new regime against their shared "enemies" meaning Democrats, liberals, progressives, non-whites, Muslims, the LGBTQ community and anyone else who refuses to submit.
This is the first interview that Tatenhove has given since Stuart Rhodes was sentenced to prison last week. It has been lightly edited for clarity.
What was your immediate reaction to seeing Stewart Rhodes convicted of seditious conspiracy? That is a high crime, and no one has been convicted of seditious conspiracy – basically trying to overthrow the government — for decades.
Right now, we're at a place in our country where we need to do the first aid and triage. And that is holding the leadership, specifically, accountable under the law. We need to show that if you try to dismantle the wheels of democracy, there will be severe repercussions. Before Jan. 6, the leadership had not been held accountable for their crimes, at least within the militia community. It has been the pawns who pay the price. There is also the critical question of what comes next. Consider someone like Stewart Rhodes. What happens when they are put into a federal prison and are going to do significant time when they were already building their own gang-like organizations, arming up, and taking action? Prison is a kind of university for them. What influence will Rhodes be able to wield behind bars? Will he continue with his plotting against democracy? DeSantis and Trump have said they would pardon many, if not all, of the Jan. 6 terrorists.
Tell me about the real Stewart Rhodes. Who is he beyond a name and image that people will see on TV and read about? Who does Stewart Rhodes imagine himself being in the story?
Rhodes' story is a common one in terms of radicalization. Stewart is a man who is lost; things have not gone the way he had planned for his life. He had been a staffer for Ron Paul up on Capitol Hill. He served as a paratrooper in the Army and was injured during training. Stewart wanted to be a hero character in his own mind. He was also an attorney, and then he got disbarred. Rhodes is very smart, and he and I shared a curiosity for what I would describe as "social engineering." This means trying to manifest your ideas into reality. That type of intelligence and thinking led to his creation of the Oath Keepers. The origin of the Oath Keepers is online on an old discussion board called The Mental Militia. In the end, Rhodes can be explained as a brilliant guy with charisma studying different propaganda techniques and ways to influence people. Rhodes took that experience and then used it to create the Oath Keepers and engage in other types of social engineering.
Stewart Rhodes lived with you for almost a year. You worked closely with him in the Oath Keepers. What is his personal energy like? What is it like when he enters a room? Describe his personality.
"Stewart was on some Joseph Campbell hero's journey, but it got twisted and distorted horribly along the way."
He's intense. He's also a person who is a voracious reader. He reads multiple books at the same time. Stewart is also very learned when it comes to American history. He knows a great deal about the law, given that he went to Yale law school. Stewart also has self-doubt and self-image, and self-esteem issues. He is not the most physically attractive person either. Stewart is a great conversationalist and can use that skill to get inside people's heads. His ability to talk was a way of compensating for his insecurities about his appearance.
Stewart Rhodes sees himself as a hero. How did that lead to him and the Oath Keepers being involved in the Jan. 6 coup attempt?
Again, that goes back to how his life did not go as planned. Many of us look for scapegoats and make excuses before we accept that we are primarily responsible for our life choices and circumstances. For Rhodes, the federal government was something he could blame for his troubles. That resonated with many people from rural America who flocked to him—in that part of the country and subculture, Waco and Ruby Ridge significantly impacted how people think about the federal government.
Is Stewart Rhodes a charismatic leader? Why would people follow him?
He's very charismatic, especially in conversation and the written word. He can touch on emotions, which is the key to his charisma and leadership style. As I said previously, he's good at reading people and then spinning his message to their needs. His appeal is primarily intellectual. Stewart is also skilled at optics. For example, he would be on social media and the internet, presenting himself as some tough guy and warrior ready to fight in the streets. Of course, he didn't do any of that. In his mind, Stewart is a hero — at least in the beginning. In the end, Stewart was trying to hold on to the trappings of what little power he had amassed with the Oath Keepers and right-wing militia movement and then project it forward. Stewart saw a great opportunity in Trump and what happened around January 6 and the coup attempt.
It's one thing to ride in Vietnam-era Hueys and run around in the woods wearing camo and shooting guns versus traveling to Washington D.C. and being armed for war as part of a coup attempt where you will serve as some "militia" or "quick reaction force" for Donald Trump when he declares martial law. I know some folks like that, and they wouldn't go through with the real deal. Was there a moment where Rhodes said, "I'm in over my head!" That he is in too deep, and things have gotten way too serious. You know the man, what do you believe he was thinking?
I don't think that Stewart would get to a point where he would think he was in too deep. The people who can pull off fantastical things are the ones who are crazy enough to try it. He was undoubtedly one of those people. Just that power of belief weeds out 90 percent of people. Stewart Rhodes is a big dreamer, and of course, his dreams did not align with what he was preaching and then what he did trying to tear down democracy.
Stewart still believes the same things about tearing down democracy right now. The letter Stewart sent to the judge asking for leniency said that he did not believe he did anything wrong. Moreover, he thinks he should be granted time served and commended for starting the organization the Oath Keepers. A certain part of this can be explained by how Stewart lived in his own head, separate from reality. Unfortunately, Stewart's fantasies became real and ended up being to the extreme detriment of the American people.
What were Stewart Rhodes' dreams? What's his vision?
He was trying to create a situation where a character like Trump would come along, and he would be able to become this paramilitary, anti-hero, or even outright hero-type character. His primary motivation was not money. That was not what Stewart was good at as compared to the other leaders in the right-wing extremist community. Stewart was on some Joseph Campbell hero's journey, but it got twisted and distorted horribly along the way.
What did Stewart Rhodes like to read? What were the books and other things did he draw upon to create his own personal narrative and make sense of the world?
A lot of it was historical and centered on the Revolutionary War era. He also talked a lot about fiction and other literature, conspiracy theories, survivalist stuff, and the like that are popular among the right-wing extremist and militia community. These are updated versions of the Turner Diaries mostly.
What makes Stewert Rhodes happy? What were you guys doing when you weren't discussing or engaging in political work?
We would go to the bar every now and then and shoot pool or play shuffleboard. We would talk, lots of good conversations. Stewart was an artist. He was a fantastic artist who did sculpture work in Vegas out of Styrofoam for shows. His work just blew me away. We both are artists. While Stewart was living with me, I encouraged him to do yoga and meditate. I assume he isn't doing that type of spiritual work anymore.
We are more than our worst day, as they say. But in that vein, does Rhodes have any real sense of what he has done and its consequences?
I don't think that Stewart fully realized what happened and what this would mean for the rest of his life. Stewart's worst day will be when he's got no one to talk to, and he's sitting in a cell by himself for years and years on end. He may finally realize what he has done when reality falls in on him. I don't know if Stewart Rhodes can be reformed. Imagine if Stewart Rhodes gets schooled and smartened up by someone from the Aryan Brotherhood. Stewart is charismatic and highly intelligent and almost played a crucial role in bringing down our democracy. Now he is in the federal prison system surrounded by people with far fewer scruples and the real demonstrated ability to reach out and kill federal judges, for example. In the worst-case scenario, Stewart Rhodes and the other Jan. 6 terrorists in jail can become a much more dangerous movement. They go from being overweight guys running around in the woods cosplaying to being hardened criminals who have been through our federal prisons' criminal university system. I am trying to sort these scenarios out in my new speculative fiction novel.
Now that Stewart Rhodes has been convicted of high crimes and is going to federal prison, what has that done to his standing among the militias and other right-wing extremists?
"If Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis gets elected, Stewart Rhodes will return."
Stewart is already a martyr. He is a star right now.
In the spirit of comic books and superheroes and supervillains, what is his origin story?
Stewart Rhodes grew up poor. I believe the stories he told me about how his family was basically migrant farmers. He met his wife at a very young age. It was his wife who got him through Yale Law. Stewart found a certain amount of success working for Ron Paul. He had a lot of things going for him, but nothing ever quite worked out. Stewart was always on the verge of success and mostly just got in his own way. Stewart felt like he deserved more and wasn't able to manifest it. His law career never took off; his military career never took off; his marriage ended poorly. The engine sparked, but it never turned over.
Stewart Rhodes has been tried and sentenced. He is locked up in a cell right now. What is he thinking about?
He's planning for every possibility. He's thinking of what happens if he's cut off and isolated. He's planning about if he has access to people and can rebuild things on the outside. He's thinking about navigating the criminal political environment as best he can to survive and thrive there. Stewart Rhodes is playing everything out in his head for every possibility and trying to devise contingency plans.
What is Rhodes an example of in this moment of democracy crisis with Trump, DeSantis, and the other neofascists rising in power and threatening to retake control of the country?
Stewart Rhodes is an example of bad behavior being rewarded. If Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis gets elected, Stewart Rhodes will return. He will make a triumphant speech and likely be appointed to a government position. If Trump or DeSantis wins, Stewart will rebuild the Oath Keepers and take the organization and right-wing militia movement even further than he ever could have because he will now have the legitimacy to do so. It's a lot like Hitler after he got released from prison. He wrote his manifesto and was ready to put his political plans into action fully. That will mean violence.
Where are we in terms of justice for the crimes of January 6 — and where should we be? As I see it, if there was actual justice in America, Donald Trump, the Republican coup plotters in Congress, and the other leaders and participants in the Jan. 6 plot and the larger fascist anti-democracy movement would be in prison right now.
We live in a world where that's just not the case. I think the best we can hope for is staving off this radical extremist right-wing movement for another few years as we try to regroup. But I don't know what real justice looks like or if it is even attainable right now in this country.
