The managing scientist at the centre of Queensland's troubled DNA testing laboratory wanted to know the names of staff members trying to get pregnant, an inquiry has heard.
Cathie Allen is one of two senior managers at Queensland Health's Forensic and Scientific Services who were stood down in September after an interim report raised the prospect that criminals may have got away with serious crimes because of DNA testing shortfalls.
On her second full day of evidence Ms Allen was asked by counsel assisting the inquiry Michael Hodge KC about an email she sent to managers.
"This seems to be recording you requiring senior managers to provide you with the names of staff that may be trying to get pregnant?" Mr Hodge asked.
"This was in the lead up to budgetary things … I was trying to help forecast that if anyone was aware that a staff member was pregnant that we would need to try to forecast for that in the following year. I wasn't trying to discourage any of that I was just trying from a budgetary perspective to have that included," Ms Allen replied.
Mr Hodge then asked Ms Allen if she thought it was "acceptable management practice to be asking your senior managers to speculate as to which scientists on the staff are thinking about getting pregnant?"
Ms Allen started to reply and was cut off by the commissioner Walter Sofronoff KC who said: "Please answer the question Ms Allen, the question is whether you thought it was good management practice?"
"From my perspective I was trying to ensure that the budget was there for us to keep moving forward," she said.
"At that point in time I didn't see an issue asking people if they were aware that someone was pregnant and that we could factor it into the budget," Ms Allen responded.
Ms Allen was asked if any of her superiors at Queensland Health knew she had asked managers to "speculate as to which scientists on staff were trying to get pregnant?"
She responded that she didn't know if they were aware or not.
Ms Allen acknowledged that asking for information about possible pregnancies could be seen as an invasion of privacy.
"I recognise that now, yes," Ms Allen said.
But she rejected Mr Hodge's assertion that the request for pregnancy information "carries the implication that decisions about staff and employment will be made on the basis of staff fertility."
"No that was not the intention at all, the intention was to ensure that the budget accounted for that," Ms Allen said.
Emphasis on doing things 'fast'
Earlier on Monday, Ms Allen said she was aware some scientists had issues with her that dated back years.
"I'm aware that there are staff that have a strongly held belief regarding me and that I have been unable to change that strongly held belief and I've engaged with my line manager regarding different options that we might have around trying to improve the culture within the lab so that we can move forward," Ms Allen said.
Mr Hodge asked Ms Allen whether she was a part of a "no-blame culture" within the lab, to which she replied she was.
The scientist was then asked: "How do you reconcile the idea that you ran a laboratory with a no-blame culture with the revelation from your executive director that scientists within your laboratory were afraid of the repercussions if they raised issues?"
Ms Allen replied that staff members had line managers and team leaders they were able to go to with any concerns.
"From my perspective I don’t believe that I blame staff, because I also don't want to be blamed, so I want to be a part of the no-blame culture," she said.
Counsel assisting also put it to Ms Allen that there was an emphasis in the lab on doing things "fast" rather than doing them "well" because the service was measured on its turnaround times.
"Do you agree that the way in which you have run the laboratory is akin to a factory line?" Mr Hodge asked.
"No, I do not," Ms Allen said.
Lab potentially 'failed' some sexual assault victims for six years
The inquiry heard a senior scientist, Amanda Reeves, raised concerns at the start of 2016 about problems with the testing of sperm samples from rape and sexual assault cases.
In December that year Ms Allen became aware that Ms Reeves was so concerned she was contemplating making a public interest disclosure (PID).
The inquiry was shown an email in which Ms Allen asked a colleague if Queensland Health Ethical Standards should be advised that Amanda Reeves had spoken with a lawyer.
"Wasn't what you were hoping for to try and get ethical standards apply some kind of pressure or undertake some kind of investigation of Ms Reeves for telling her lawyer about the thing that she was concerned about what you were doing in the lab?" Mr Hodge asked.
"No, I was just asking questions around what our obligations were, what next steps we needed to do because as I say I'm not familiar with a PID process and I haven't been through a PID process," Ms Allen replied.
Mr Hodge then put it to Ms Allen that she was more focused on trying to "defeat" Ms Reeves than she was about fixing processes.
"Do you agree that if the issue raised by Ms Reeves was a real issue within the processing within the lab, then it would mean that the lab had for six years been – to put it bluntly – failing victims of sexual offences in Queensland?" he asked.
"It would mean that we would have to do a review of those cases to ensure that they were appropriately examined," Ms Allen said.
Manager feared document 'shredding party'
Mr Hodge went on to ask Ms Allen about the departure of senior scientist Amanda Reeves from the lab in 2018.
"Immediately after she left the DNA unit you had heard a report from an employee about documents being thrown into a confidential bin?" Mr Hodge asked.
"The information that came to me was that there was a shredding party occurring in that area," Ms Allen said.
Mr Hodge said Ms Allen reacted by trying to see if she could have Ms Reeves fired.
"No, that's not true," Ms Allen replied.
"And then you were also looking at whether there was action you could take at some of the other scientists in the lab who you regarded as allies of Ms Reeves?" Mr Hodge said.
"No, that's not true," Ms Allen replied.
"And you set about to see if you could, to put it very bluntly, bring about retribution against them?"
"No, that's not true," Ms Allen said.
Public hearings before commissioner Walter Sofronoff KC have been running for more than a month, with the inquiry's final report due back this year.
Ms Allen's legal team is yet to put questions to her.
