This week, host Sumedha Mittal is joined by independent journalist Angad Singh.
Formerly with Vice News, Angad was “blacklisted” by the Indian government over a documentary called India Burning, which he worked on as a production assistant. He talks about dealing with court cases after being accused by the central government of portraying India in a “negative” light. He says his OCI card was taken anyway and talks about the sorrow of not being able to return to India anymore.
Tune in.
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:03:01 - Angad’s story
00:30:29 - Recommendations
Recommendations
Angad
Captivating the Simple-Hearted: A Struggle for Human Dignity in the Indian Subcontinent
Sumedha
Time Is Running Out for Rahul Gandhi’s Vision for India
Produced and edited by Saif Ali Ekram, recorded by Anil Kumar.
Sting: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to Reporters Without Orders.
Sumedha: Order, order. Hello and welcome to Reporters Without Order. This is the podcast where we talk about what made news, what didn't, and something that absolutely shouldn't have. Usually in this podcast, we bring you reporters to talk about their work, what went behind their stories, what they didn't do, Could not be made part of their pieces.
But in today's episode, we are doing something very different. Because if you are a foreign journalist based in India, there is a whole new dimension to your career. Like, for example, there was recently Emily Schmall, who was Delhi based South Asia correspondent for New York Times. She shared her experience saying she alleged that Indian government invited foreign correspondents over tea and then berated them.
So, Then recently, we saw a case of French journalist Vanessa Dugnac, who was living in India for over two decades. [00:01:00] She was an OCI card holder and was asked to leave. The government had accused that her reportage created biased negative perception of India. And of all these people, there's one more journalist, Angad Singh, a U.
S. based journalist with Indian origin. He was formerly with Vice News and who used to report on India and South Asian countries. But in August 2022, when he flew to India to meet his family, because Angad is also an OCI card holder, the government deported him back to New York. saying that he is blacklisted.
And when Angad moved the Delhi High Court against the state's action, the central government told the court that his documentary, the documentary which he was part of and had produced for Vice, India Burning, presented a very negative view of India's secular credentials. And to talk about this, we have with us Angad Singh joining from [00:02:00] New York on this podcast to talk about what has happened with him and the threats which is looming over the foreign journalists who report on India.
Hi, Angad.
Angad: Hey, Sumedha. Hey, News Laundry folks and listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. And it's really a pleasure To be here and what an honor, uh, to open up about my story with you guys. I've been a fan of your reporting for quite a long time, uh, and really appreciate everyone who pays to keep news free.
Sumedha: Yeah. And thanks for joining us. I think this is the first time like you are sharing your story, uh, in a video format or, or on a podcast. Is it? Definitely.
Angad: It's the first time I'm, I'm doing a video interview about this. So it's, uh, definitely it feels like a big moment, but I'm, I'm happy to talk with you about it.
Sumedha: Angad, uh, we'll jump right into your court case. I think the hearing was last week, your last hearing of the case in [00:03:00] the Delhi High Court was just last week.
Angad: Yeah, that's right. So, um, you know, I wish I could be there with you in person recording this, uh, but. Um, you know, for the last few years, I've been, um, challenging the Indian government, uh, over their decision to not let me into the country.
I am an overseas citizen of India, a card I keep here on my desk, uh, say reminder, a fond reminder of. a country that I love, a place that has always felt like home to me, um, up until recently, up until in 2022 when I, uh, flew to visit my grandmother, who's not doing well, and with no explanation was turned around at the New Delhi border.
Um, I Basically, you know, was flying for 45 hours straight, you know, from New York to Delhi and, and straight back. And after all of that happened back in August of [00:04:00] 2022, um, you know, I wrote to the New York consulate here asking them what happened. Like no one would tell me at the, at the airport why I was not being allowed in.
Sumedha: All they said that you are blacklisted. They didn't say anything.
Angad: They didn't even say I was blacklisted. Uh, they just didn't let me in. And so I had to write to the consulate and the consulate didn't respond so at that point, I had to hire lawyers and file in New Delhi High Court to get a response from the government because I'm entitled as an overseas citizen of India to visit India.
I'm a citizen. a type of citizen anyway, and, uh, to not let me in is I think a huge violation of the law and really sad because there's so many of us in the diaspora who have so much love for the homeland, for our brothers and sisters on the subcontinent, and, uh, have, you know, taken to careers like journalism, like myself, uh, out of love for our people, our culture, our civilization, and wanting to [00:05:00] spread that to the rest of the world.
And so, so for the last few years, I've been, uh, basically It's been a very slow, tedious process. We first moved the court, the court then responds, yes, you've been blacklisted. And then we kind of have to respond to the blacklist charge. And then a few months later, they, they come back and say, these are the reasons why you're blacklisted.
Then we have to respond to those charts. So over the last two years, essentially, this back and forth has been playing out. I don't really remember how many dates we've had. It's probably been eight or nine. Um, but for the last, uh, three or four sessions in court, it, the case has been adjourned as far as I'm aware.
Um, which means no new evidence will be introduced and it's just due for final arguments. The judge either hasn't had time to hear it or the government's lawyers don't show up when he does have time to hear it. Or yeah, and so it's just kind of been, uh, last week on April 23rd, we had another date in [00:06:00] court.
Um, you know, I was up all night because it's during the daytime in Delhi. So I was up from like, you know, 3am to 7am essentially waiting, uh, to hear if my turn would show up in front of the judge. And when it finally did, it was too late in the afternoon. So they have now pushed it until August. Um, I'm hoping next time.
We'll get some sort of resolution, but it's, it's hard to be sure.
Sumedha: So for the final judgment, you have to wait for three more months.
Angad: Yeah, I suppose so. Um, right around independence day. So let's see
Sumedha: what
Angad: happens.
Sumedha: What kind of a toll does it take on you, Angad? Like it's been two years, it's going on and on and on.
And like, though we do believe in the justice system, but as it famously said, like, you know, process is the punishment. Has it been the same for you?
Angad: Yeah, I mean, you know, I try to be optimistic that what's happened to me is much less worse than what [00:07:00] happens to journalists, activists within India. That I have immense privilege as an American citizen.
Being able to return to my home country with relatively no, uh, you know, harm to my body, uh, which I'm thankful for. And it's something that, you know, people in my community out here definitely remind me of every time they talk to me about my case, that they're really thankful that I'm here. All that happened to me was being deported.
And that's unfortunately now the reputation India has, um, when it comes to freedom of press, uh, but you know, for me, it has been difficult. Um, I, of course, yeah, I love, I want to center the stories of, of. those that are in India wrongfully detained for their reporting, uh, wrongfully being persecuted by the state, by vigilante groups, all sorts of people.
That's, it's a very tough [00:08:00] situation to be a journalist, uh, in India, but in my own case, um, you know, Obviously the deportation was hard. I didn't have COVID up until I got on that, that return flight. And the person behind me was coughing his brains out. And, uh, you know, I came home and I got COVID for the first time.
Um, you know, it was sort of isolating grappling with this reality that I've just been sort of banned from this place that I love, um, And that's had an impact on my personal relationships. That's had an impact on my personal health, my mental health, um, and also professional career, you know, like I, I put everything I've had into trying to bring stories about India to a Western audience.
And I've done that since I was 13 years old, uh, when I started making documentaries, this was purely a labor of love of pride for my people and my culture and to have the country that. All [00:09:00] your life growing up looking like this in the United States where people are, you know in a racist way Tell you go back to where you came from go back to your country.
You don't belong here I would go back to india. This is the place where I learned to love the parts of me America didn't know every summer i'd go visit my grandparents and No matter where I go people see me as indian first No one sees me as an american first people see me as indian first. I mean look at me and and to have You The government tell you you're no longer welcome here.
Go back to where you came from. That same thing I heard as a kid is really disheartening. And it's something that still breaks me up, makes me feel really sad. And, you know, it makes me feel like I don't belong to a place that all my life I felt I'm supposed to belong to.
Sumedha: Like, in the court, the central government has replied to your petition saying that your documentary Burning India presented a [00:10:00] very negative view of India's secular credentials.
Was this the only reason that they gave to deport you back to New York?
Angad: So, so, it's that and that I created, like, anti national propaganda. uh, that shows the secular credentials of India in a negative light. I believe those were the sort of words they used. Um, so firstly, the film is called India Burning.
Uh, the government doesn't have the name of the film right. I don't believe that they've seen it. And if they have, uh, they haven't mentioned anything that's factually incorrect about the film. As to the specifics about that film, I was an uncredited production assistant. Uh, you know, it was, you know, not something where I was in a lead editorial capacity by any means, but, uh, nonetheless, a work that is very, uh, powerful, very telling of where India is, uh, you know, 70 to 75 years after the implementation of its secular world famous constitution [00:11:00] that cemented its status as the world's largest democracy.
And, uh, the, the film itself is, uh, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. In fact, most of the details that I think we provided in that film as vice media, when I say we, um, which is no longer my employer. I'm an independent journalist now, but, um, it's, I think a hundred percent factual and stuff that the Indian press did a great job at reporting, uh, in the months leading up to our, the, when we released that film as well.
Sumedha: So for how long you have been this OCI card holder? I
Angad: think 2007, like I was, maybe 12 or 13 years old. Um, I think the year when I first started making documentaries as a student, actually. Um, but you know, I've been visiting India all my life since I was like two years old or something. Um, so it's,
Sumedha: but you have, but you never faced this kind of like,
Angad: Oh no, absolutely not.
[00:12:00] I mean, I, I only went to India. I only went to India once in the capacity as a journalist. And at that point, you know, the government wasn't even, it hadn't even required it. For OCIs to get a special permission for journalism, yet I went, because I wanted to be very sure, and you know it was my job at that point mainly to do the logistical paperwork for my team at VICE, so I applied for everyone's visa including myself.
And so, Back in 2020, that was the first time I'd ever been to India in, in any of, actually been abroad ever, and it was my first international news, uh, story, even though I worked at the international desk for a long time at VICE, um, and I didn't realize it ended up being my last trip.
Sumedha: You had special journalist, like, permission to shoot for the documentary.
Angad: Yeah, exactly. We'd been given permission to make the film.
Sumedha: So how did you challenge it? Like, what was your reply in the court?
Angad: The response is pretty straightforward. It's, you know, we, [00:13:00] Uh, nothing about it is like what they're saying about it, that it's anti national propaganda, that it shows secular credentials in a bad light.
None of that's true. Uh, everything is factual in the documentary. There's nothing wrong with the documentary. And the other thing they said is like, we didn't provide them a copy of the film to sort of review, uh, ahead of time. But, uh, even, even with that, it like, it says like, if they ask us for the copy, we should provide it.
They never asked for the copy. Not until a year or so after it was broadcast, which we made it abundantly clear when the film would be broadcast. Um, so, you know, the government sort of never asked for it. And really all of this started happening once that film, uh, started gaining Sort of international attention.
Um, it won some awards. Uh, it was quoted by the undersecretary general of prevention for genocide in the U. N. Um, I think the prime minister of [00:14:00] Pakistan retweeted a clip of it, uh, and run kind. So I think once it started getting this, like, sort of international, like recognition, um, that's when I think. the Indian government started taking notice.
And I think the title of the film, India Burning, is a bit provocative. But, you know, it certainly, to me, in my mind, feels encapsulating of what was going on at that time. I mean, it was the Delhi riots. Like, the capital was literally engulfed in flames. People were dying. So I don't know what else you would describe that very dark moment right around, you know, the anniversary of the 70th anniversary of India's constitution, secular constitution.
People are saying the country is no longer a secular country anymore, uh, with the citizenship amendment act. And so that's, you know, that that's kind of where I think the name of the film was. Inspired from uh, but yeah,
Sumedha: I'm good. [00:15:00] There's another aspect to it like you're not just like a foreign journalist, you know, like who comes and Works in india and then you know, like after working for a couple of years leave back you're also an oci card holder and you're like you have indian origins and recently we are seeing that there's a growing trend of you know, like the indian government cancelling The Overseas Card of Indian Citizens.
There was this recent report by Vijeta Lalwani in Article 14, where she, through her RTI, she had found that Ministry of Home Affairs has cancelled more than 100 OCI cards in the last nine years and also blacklisted them. Most of these like OCI card holders of the people who were, you know, like critical of the government and so has been your work.
Does a similar SWAT hang around your neck?
Angad: It's a very dark way to put it, but yeah, I mean, look, I think the OCI policy was brilliant in that India is facing a brain [00:16:00] drain. It continues to face that the educated class of the country wants to get out, wants to migrate to the United States, to Canada, to Britain, to all of these Western colonial nations.
And I thought the OCI card was a brilliant way to leave that door open for those who were. Like me, the children of the brain drain, um, for an opportunity to come back. Look, my dream when I was, when we had just before we had left for Delhi on that reporting trip, my dream at that point in my life was five years from now.
I would love to take my company based in the United States, open up an Asia Pacific news division out of Mumbai, out of Delhi, bring that American money back to India, hire people from India to do world class news coverage. That was my personal dream. I really embraced that mentality. I wanted to, you know, I saw myself in this greater saga of [00:17:00] What's happening to our diaspora, to India, to its people, how that, you know, people are leaving the country and not sort of coming back.
And there was a big yearning inside of me to go back, to contribute, to be a part of that civilization once again. And to have, you know, five years later, to feel that the exact opposite has happened, to know that, um, it's not an option, and that Unfortunately, under this administration's policies, uh, critics with OCIs are just being, uh, removed of their status, stripped of their status.
Um, it is, it is incredibly sad because Uh, you know, on the, on the flip side of it, you start hearing these discussions in the diaspora, especially amongst the, um, Indian nationalist crowd, the Hindutva crowd in the United States, right? They are alling for OCIs to have the ability to vote, to be able [00:18:00] to own land, to, to start to participate in the politics of Indian society.
So on one hand, you have these people who are the OCI outholders wanting, And advocating for more political status within India. Yet those that are deemed critical of the state, they are being methodically stripped of that citizenship. Um, it is a really. Sad trend to see, because I think that's the strength of democracy.
There's a strength of a pluralistic society. That's a strength of the promise of India. And I think you're seeing that vision fall away to something that unless you fall in line with the majoritarian thinking, you won't be welcome there. And that is a really sad trend for me to see.
Sumedha: An elementary question.
What for our Indian audience, what. What does it, how does it, uh, impact or affect you when your OCI? [00:19:00] caught is just snatched away.
Angad: And especially as a Sikh, right? Like I'm a minority. I've always been a minority, no matter where I go. And yet one that represents India so boldly because of the way we look. Um, whether that's through like stereotypes or whether that's just through our actual history and contribution to the formation of the nation.
Um, and to have OCI status stripped away from you, it means, you know, you'll never be welcome back unless. Something really drastically changes. And what that means is. You're you, you and your future generations. The connection to your land, where you belong, where you are indigenous to is done. It's wiped out.
You will never see it again. To not be able to go back to where you're from. Really, honestly, truly, where your culture is from, where your people is from, your language is [00:20:00] from, your music is from, your food is from. I mean, these are the most basic, fundamental things that define the human experience. And if you're no longer allowed to partake in those things, it is very dehumanizing.
Sumedha: So after this August 2022 incident, uh, you were still working at VICE. And did it limit your work as a journalist? Uh, While working at wise, like now you can not like come to India or report more.
Angad: Sure. Of course it has, you know, um, professionally, like I'm not able to, you know, report on the most important country in the region that I've.
built my career upon. Uh, so that's, that's like putting all of your eggs in one basket and having that basket fall apart. Um, and you know, I've tried to find ways to adapt, but honestly, the biggest thing has just been the [00:21:00] actual punishment through the trial, where when I have a court date coming up, when I have to like go through legal documents, I don't have the capacity to dedicate myself to a story or to reporting.
It's like, you're neutralized. It's like, you're. You know, you can't give your full self to hearing someone else's story and doing the justice to their life experience when you yourself are so wrapped up in your own personal, um, struggles and things that are affecting you on such a deep level. So after all of that happened, I mean, I Vice ended up going bankrupt about a year later, but in that downtime, in between when I was deported and when I, you know, the company would go bankrupt, I was only able to publish one more story.
Uh, I was only able to go do one more report. And, you know, I did something in Latin America, um, because at that [00:22:00] point, you know, I had to shift my focus to somewhere else and it took a lot of resources to. Retrain since I got blacklisted even that one experience to me was so profound because I realized no matter where I go I will always represent india and our people and the subcontinent And no matter how many things the indian government wants to do.
They cannot take that away from me
Sumedha: Uncle, um, i'll also come to this part of like a bit later But there's one question from you like recently. We are seeing the You thing that Narendra Modi is, you know, like has established India on the world map is means a lot to an ordinary Indian citizen. Like the BJP government is literally, you know, like trying to woo voters on that, uh, on that aspect, you know, like we have put the India on the global map and then there's the whole foreign press, which, which says that [00:23:00] they are not able to report on India.
So what's the talk amongst them? Like how does like foreign journalists now see India?
Angad: You know, look, certainly amongst the average American, India is a rising power and people are recognizing it. And even for me, there's as much repression as I've faced. I still feel proud that I see my people, my brothers and sisters of the subcontinent, that I see you all rising as a nation together and being influential.
That's great. But amongst the journalist community, There's certainly a recognition of how low India ranks on individual liberties, particularly the freedom of press. Um, there's many of, many people reporting on how it's just very anti democratic what they're doing, and how appalling it is that the United States and Western partners, out of this desperation to woo India, which they know is this, geopolitical elephant that [00:24:00] cannot be ignored, uh, is ignoring their violation, not just of the freedom of press or the freedoms of individuals within the country, but the very sovereignty of Western nations.
On one hand, The foreign press is where you'll find the most criticism of India. I mean, obviously there are many independent community funded journalist outlets in India that do great work. Uh, but the foreign press is certainly a place where you're able to find that criticism. But I think in. In a certain capacity, they're very limited because the audience out here doesn't care about the nitty gritties, about the ground level functioning, about all of the things that actually matter.
They, when they're reporting, they're reporting for the Western audience and the Western audience isn't always familiar with India. So oftentimes it's covering The same broad strokes and, you know, I'm plugged into a lot of Indian [00:25:00] right wing circles as well. You know, I love to see what they're saying. And many of them feel like, you know, there's this agenda out in the West to go get them to paint India in this way, that way.
Sumedha: Last question. I'm good. Um, Until recently, after like, after like, um, your stint with the vice came to an end, you started working independently and now you're producing your own, like, videos on your social media. And like, I, we, we were, we like, we in India, sitting in Delhi were also like a lot of people I saw were following your work on farmers protests, like how actively you were, you know, trying to break down the issue.
And then suddenly there was this, your Twitter account was also blocked in India. How do you respond to that?
Angad: Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. No, I definitely recently, I definitely felt the, the Nazir of the Indian state somewhere. I think they, uh, they've been watching. Yeah. You know, it's, it gives me the liberty to [00:26:00] report what I'm interested in.
It's very tough because there's so much more I'm interested in, but I don't have the bandwidth to produce it. Um, So sometimes I just stay to the, the topics that I really feel are my core authority areas, whether that's the farmers protest or the transnational repression, just because I've been so plugged into those stories and, uh, you know, they affect so many people in my community.
Um, you know, there's so many things that are happening from India. I'd love to be able to, to continue to make short form content about, Um, but it is tough. You know, eventually, several months later, Twitter reached back out to me saying my content was unblocked. Uh, but I did make three short vertical videos once the farmers protest 2.
0 sort of had kicked off. And, um, it was like really straightforward reporting. Um, you know, the farmers have started their protest again. What are their demands? And I wanted to really get down into it, um, but, you know, once that content [00:27:00] sort of gets blocked in India, you lose such a huge part of the audience you're going for.
Um, it is really disheartening and it's discouraging and it makes you feel like, and, and then it wasn't even just the Indian government, then all this news comes out that, you know, Instagram and meta are deep de platforming or de prioritizing political content. Um, the same. So, so it's, and, and, you know, you asked me that question earlier about the mainstream news, if they're being influenced by, uh, Indian government, I think less so, but I think social media is heavily, heavily influenced by the Indian government for sure.
And in this era of democratization of media, I am personally skeptical that I will have that ability to pursue that independent career, knowing that these social media companies who cannot afford to lose the 1. 4 billion people in India as their market, um, will bow to the pressures [00:28:00] of the Modi government and the Indian state, uh, In terms of censoring free speech, even if it's completely accurate, well reported, all that.
Sumedha: But Twitter has also fought a case in India for, for the same reasons that, you know, like they don't agree with this. And recently, like it was the statement by the global affairs was unprecedented that we don't, you know, agree to these statements, but we have no other option.
Angad: And I think that that just comes down to the fundamentals, right?
It's India as a state sees. Freedom of speech as a national security issue. The, the apparatus of, uh, you know, the way it governed itself, the central government, the way it centralizes power, it sees freedom of speech as a proper national security cat. That's why India is the king of shutting down the internet.
That's why, and you know, it's like, definitely there's some logic to Making in order, you know, disinformation and whatnot, but you also see impacts government, the work
Sumedha: of, and it directly impacts the work of journalists like you.
Angad: Absolutely. So it is [00:29:00] very tough. Um, you know, the other way it's impacted me is I, as a journalist, I'm, I'm very curious, you know, my, my biological dad, he's Hindu, so I'm very curious what the Hindu community is doing out here.
And I reach out to people when I initially make that contact. Sometimes they're very. Excited to hear me and like the way I, you know, I'm just genuinely curious about them and their experience and the insight I have. Um, but then they might ask somebody who am I? And because of the reputation that the trolls online and the Indian state has sort of manufactured about me, people don't want to talk and.
That just shuts down dialogue. Like I want to be as expansive as I can. I want to understand as many perspectives as I can, but then people don't want to talk to you and that's really sad, right? Because that's, you know, that's not, um, it's not conducive to creating a more cohesive, Unified society where people, you know, feel respected from all [00:30:00] backgrounds.
It, it is actually a very divisive, uh, way in which things are happening.
Sumedha: Thanks for talking to us. I wish we could talk to you more about a lot of other things, but because of the time constraints, like we can't squeeze in more, but last question. Any recommendation for our audience? Like anything you think like you should, they should read any article or any book or any movie which you might have watched recently, which you would like to recommend for our audience?
Angad: Yeah, actually, uh, well, it's a book that I read recently. Uh, somebody gave it to me. It's called Captivating the Simple Hearted. Uh, Struggle for Human Dignity in the Indian Subcontinent, uh, by Peter Friedrich and Bhajan Singh. So the book is a retelling of Sikh history from the period of the gurus up until, uh, post independence.
Okay. Um, yeah, through the anti caste movement and, and, and sort of how, Sikhi as so so and and it's really helped me like kind of I suppose decolonialized my [00:31:00] own understanding of religion because out here in the West and in secular society, which India is increasingly not becoming one And I think that's like, it's just a reality.
And I think it's important to understand like the academic sort of understanding of secularism, right? It's a, it's a, it's a framework. It's a Western framework, which sees the church and state is fundamentally separate. Yet out here in the U S we know this is a Judeo Christian state. We know that it's founded on these values, even though it's technically secular and technically different.
Um, what to me, what it's done to help me understand my own history as a Tied together the the political and the religious are Dharma It's put it together into one and it's really framed the Sikh movement because even in our own community, we know there's a lot of caste politics even though that we In principle stand very much against that,
Sumedha: but no religion in India can escape has been able to escape the [00:32:00] caste problem.
Angad: Definitely. But it's at least one way for us to remember the roots of what the intentions of, and the significant turning points in Sikh history were, and, uh, in a way to sort of understand this movement as one that was very rebellious against that feudal hierarchy that has been a dominant ordering. of Indian, or rather subcontinental society, um, from, for many, many decades, many, many centuries.
Okay. So I definitely recommend it.
Sumedha: Okay. And my recommendation for the week is, uh, this, uh, good fly on the wall piece by, Which is recently published in the New York Times by Samantha Subramaniam and, uh, the article is titled as time is running out for Rahul Gandhi's vision for India. I think it's a very, very interesting read and very important to read ahead of the 2024, like as the 2024 Lok Sabha elections are going ahead.
And if you're following. News [00:33:00] Laundry, you'll be aware that News Laundry, along with our partner organization, the News Minute, is covering Lok Sabha Elections 2024. And our reporters are spread across the country, who are bringing you extensive, in depth reportage, uh, which is of public interest. And if you are liking our work, then please support us.
And With that, this podcast is adjourn
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