Like all politicians in the flesh, Sir Keir Starmer looks like his newspaper caricatures, with a large concrete head, big buggy, slightly rabbit-caught-in-the-headlights eyes, and an earnest disposition. A Labour leader who isn’t obviously pleased with himself and a leader who is almost exactly what you might expect.
When we meet at the Labour HQ down near Tate Modern, it is obvious Starmer has had a fair bit of media training, and while he’s quite stilted, he wants to make a good impression. Tony Blair was extremely Blairish, and in person he was always sort of like Blair times 10. Gordon Brown was exactly the opposite and always looked as though he would rather be somewhere else. Ed Miliband always looked as though he was about to make a speech (something he shared with Neil Kinnock, although with Kinnock there was always the possibility he might launch into song, too). And as for Jeremy Corbyn, well, it was like talking to an Antony Gormley sculpture.
Starmer, though, at least on this occasion, was eager to talk, keen to espouse his principled version of the Labour Party and to publicly distance himself from the Corbyn years. He predictably bats back my questions about the (non-existent, apparently) friction between him and Angela Rayner (honestly, guys, get a room!), his difficultly with the trans issue (‘I think I’ve made my position perfectly clear…’, said with the conviction of someone who really isn’t sure what the current position might be), and the (non-existent) conflict between him and Sadiq Khan.
Even though he went into politics at a relatively late stage, I think he can’t wait to assume power. He looks like a man who believes in his principles. The thing is — and it’s a big thing — do we?
A lot of people say it’s time to give the other lot a chance, and that after 13 years of Tory rule it’s time to give the Labour Party a shot at sorting out the economy, immigration, inflation, knife crime, heating costs, doctors’ strikes, train strikes, the Met, Chinese spying and all of the other things with which the current government appears to be having problems. Those very same people might not necessarily have much confidence in Labour’s ability to do any better, but they certainly think they should be given a chance.
Since becoming Labour leader in April 2020, Starmer has had a galvanising effect on his party. If you ask Alastair Campbell what New Labour’s greatest achievement was, he’ll say getting elected; and if you ask David Cameron a similar thing he’ll say forming a coalition with Nick Clegg’s Lib-Dems. In years to come, Starmer’s greatest achievement could conceivably be turning the Labour Party into a party that actually looks fit for purpose. Not only was Corbyn completely unelectable, but he also set Labour back decades, managing to turn Britain’s only genuine political alternative into a marginal circus show. Starmer has managed to calm the unions, purge the party of its anti-Semitic narrative and move it to the centre ground.
“I would be a strong, determined, ruthless leader”
Both he and Rachel Reeves have made serious inroads in the City, but there are still fears among neutrals that he will find a way to move his party towards the left if he wins power. He says he is methodical, and after the whirlwind of Boris and the diminishing returns of Theresa May, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak himself, this may be no bad thing. Boring, perhaps, but not bad. Like Sunak, he comes across as something of a cipher, passionless and orderly; in terms of optics there isn’t a cigarette paper between the two men. What Starmer has is his ‘mission-driven’ philosophy and his five big ideas.
Starmer's five big ideas
1) To make Britain a clean-energy superpower by reaching zero-carbon energy by 2030
2) To modernise the NHS
3) To make Britain’s streets safer by improving the country’s policing and judicial systems
4) To break down barriers to opportunity by overhauling education and childcare
5) To secure the highest sustained growth in the G7
So, do you like the idea of Keir Starmer as prime minister? A lot of the electorate certainly think so. At least they say they do. A centrist without Tony Blair’s jazz hands, Starmer has become genuinely appealing. But is he a leader or might he just be the guy who isn’t the other guy?
Dylan Jones: The weight of expectation right now must be huge.
Keir Starmer: I think there is a huge expectation and a real sense that the country needs change, and if we are privileged enough to get into power we will have to be the deliverers of that change.
Do you feel the pressure yourself? You must.
Yes, and I should feel the pressure, but this isn’t about me. It isn’t about the shadow cabinet. It actually isn’t about the Labour Party, it’s about the country. And that’s why we should all feel the pressure.
But it is about you, of course it is. In Westminster, in the media, there is a slightly giddy, nervous feeling, like in 1996-97… Can you feel that?
I think the mood is very different. In fact I’ve talked this through with Tony [Blair]. I think the mood in ’97 was one where the song ‘Things Can Only Get Better’ really chimed and for a good reason. The economy was growing, public services weren’t completely on their knees, we were turning into a new century and we felt we were on the back of an upward wave, which we were surfing as the Labour Party. That is not the mood of the country now. The mood is flat, it is insecure and people are concerned about the future.
The Labour Party in the mid-Nineties had a certain momentum that had been building since John Smith became leader in 1992, whereas you’ve had an extremely quick turnaround from the Corbyn years.
I am very proud of what I’ve achieved, and we’ve turned this party around in a few short years. We’ve done Kinnock, we’ve done Smith, we’ve done Blair all in one go and we had a bit of a slow start because we were in the middle of Covid. It was actually quite hard to get out and about during the first few months of my leadership. But we had to do that. I was absolutely clear as soon as I took over as leader that if we were to turn this around and take the Labour Party from the worst defeat since 1935 into power, we had to do three things in quick order and in this sequence: firstly, change the Labour Party; secondly, expose the Government as not fit to govern, ably assisted in that by one or two prime ministers along the way; and then answer the question, if not them then why us? We had to be completely ruthless and determined in changing the Labour Party.
With respect, do the public really want you or are they just sick of Rishi, sick of the Tories?
Look, the Tories have put themselves in a really bad place and all that does is allow the public to look at the alternative. They looked at the alternative and they like what they see. And therefore it’s about both. If we had not changed the Labour Party then I don’t think we’d be in the position we are now. They would have looked at us and said, you’re the same old party that lost in 2019, and therefore we’re not going there. There are proof points in this as well, as if you look at the local election results year on year, they are increasingly in our favour in the places we need to win. And also in by-elections you don’t get results like Selby [which was the largest majority ever overturned by Labour in a by-election] without the public feeling like they want to vote Labour.
On Rishi, do you think his flip-flopping on net-zero is going to help him with the public? It has already helped him with the rump of his party.
No, because it’s very clear it’s him putting politics first, not country first, and in my view that’s the wrong way round. It’s also completely unhelpful for business and investors. They are not going to die in a ditch on exactly the day that a particular thing happens, but they are absolutely fed up with the chopping and changing that causes the instability and puts them off investing. So, his flip-flopping is very bad for the country. Also we do need leadership.
What kind of leader would you be?
Strong, determined, ruthless. One of the most important things about leadership is absolute clarity about what you’re trying to achieve. An absolutely clear mission purpose. Ours is to get elected in order to change the country for the better. You also need real clarity about how you get there. There is no good answering the ‘What’ if you haven’t answered the ‘How’. And then having the steel to do the difficult things, the ruthless things to ensure we actually get where we need to be.
Okay, on that topic, while there is a general warmth towards Labour, and while judging from the opinion polls lots of people want change, the criticism aimed at you is that you flip-flop, you often change your mind.
I don’t accept that criticism. If you look at what we’ve laid out, I’ve said we’re going to be a mission-driven government and that will give us the focus, the sense of purpose and a new way of governing. I’ve been really clear that we have five big missions and none of that has changed. So therefore I just don’t accept the premise of the argument.
“I am very proud of what I’ve achieved, and we’ve turned this party around in a few short years”
You backed Corbyn on cancelling tuition fees. So where are you now on that, because you now say you don’t want to do that?
On tuition fees we think that the current system doesn’t work well, or at least needs to be changed. But given where we are with the economy, we are not going to make unfunded spending commitments and therefore are not in the position to abolish tuition fees.
You once advocated renationalisation, but you’ve changed your mind on that, too. Where are you now?
Where am I now? Pragmatic. Where it makes sense to have a publicly owned entity we will have a publicly owned entity, so GB Energy is an example of that. As we move forward we want to make sure that we hit clean power by 2030 and that will require a huge national effort. And we will use the vehicle of GB Energy to in order to ensure that where investment is made on behalf of our taxpayers, we will get a yield for it as well.
What about killing the House of Lords, which is a very emotive subject.
Yes, we need to do it. I don’t come across many people who defend the House of Lords. I’m not saying they don’t do a good job, and those peers who are already there do a great job scrutinising legislation, but conceptually it can’t be defended and has to be changed. That’s why we commissioned Gordon Brown to look at it and why I accepted his recommendations [abolition].
What about increasing tax for top earners, which is a traditional Labour ploy and something which many of your voters would expect?
We haven’t got plans to increase tax for any earners. The tax burden now is the highest it’s been since I don’t know how many years — 75? The answer to the growth we need is not to tax more, the answer is to ensure we’ve got a strategy for growth, and the partnerships that enable us to deliver it. That’s why this Labour Party is different because in the past it has been tempting to reach for the tax and spend levers, but we’re pulling the growth lever.
Trump or Biden — who is going to make the best US president, and which one would you prefer?
Look, the American people will have to decide that.
Look, you’re going to go there to pay your respects, the winner is going to come here… which one would you prefer? You need that relationship.
That UK-US relationship will be strong whoever the president is, and as an incoming government we will make it our business to work with whoever is the president. Obviously there is a lot of water to go under the bridge yet, in that election, but we will make that relationship work whoever is in charge.
Going back to your childhood, your mother Josephine’s illness must have had an enormous impact on you. What did her illness and your experience of being around that illness teach you?
Courage and resilience. It was quite extraordinary to see my mum in that condition. She got Still’s disease when she was 11, which is when her immune system started turning in on itself, with the prognosis that she wasn’t going to be able to have kids and wouldn’t be able to walk in her 20s. There was an inspiring consultant at Guy’s Hospital and working with him, she refused to accept that prognosis. She became one of the early users of new steroid drugs, and determinedly had four kids and walked until she was in her 40s, 50s. But the combination of the disease and the treatment had a terrible toll on her, so she was very ill a lot of the time and couldn’t resist infections. So she went into hospital a lot. And she was in high-dependency units. So I spent far too much of my youth in and around high dependency units. So many times there was the, ‘Is she going to make it? Is she going to make it out,’ conversations. She ended up having to have her leg amputated and was unable to use her limbs, unable to speak, unable to feed herself. But before she got to that final stage, if you ever asked her, ‘How are you?’ she would say, ‘I’m fine. How are you?’ That courage and determination also drives me.
What was your interaction with your peer group like at the time you were looking after your mother?
It had a big impact on me because we had to be there for my mum all the time. My dad devoted his life to looking after her and that meant understanding every single symptom she could possibly have so he would be in a position to deal with it. This meant that the family contracted in on itself. We were not particularly sociable. So it was rare for my mum and dad to have people around. We didn’t have family discussions around the table. We didn’t have distinguished or interesting guests. That wasn’t my upbringing; it was much more straightforward than that.
How was it editing the Young Socialists magazine at Surrey University?
I joined the Labour Party as soon as I could, the East Surrey Young Socialists! And we campaigned for the Labour Party. When I was in my 20s I edited the Socialist Alternatives magazine, which was an early attempt to fuse traditional Labour politics with feminist green politics, because until that point they were all swimming in different channels. I loved it.
You were in school with Norman Cook. Are you still in touch?
A bit. We speak… occasionally.
“I haven’t talked to Jeremy since the anti-Semitism report was published”
Okay, the elephant in the room. What’s your relationship with Angela Rayner really like? Do you go round to her house for dinner? Has she made you one of her infamous cocktails?
No, I haven’t had one of her cocktails! [Nervous laugh.] Ange and I get on really well. The myth that we somehow don’t see eye-to-eye is simply not borne out, and if anybody ever saw us together they would understand that immediately. I’m not going to suggest that we agree on everything, but our relationship is very, very strong, evidenced by the fact that when things are not going so well outside of politics, like at home, or with worries about relatives, then Ange is always the first to have my back and vice versa.
Many people seem to like you, but they’re very suspicious of her. Why?
I don’t know. Is it because she represents the Labour Party of old? No. Ange is as focused on winning the election as I am. She will be a fantastic deputy prime minister and the two of us make a really good political couple because we come at things slightly differently, we bring different things to the table. But we are absolutely agreed on what we are trying to achieve.
How often do you chat to Tony Blair?
Reasonably often. Once or twice a month.
And Jeremy Corbyn?
Never. I haven’t spoken to Jeremy since the day the anti-Semitism report was published.
What would you do if you saw him across the street?
Not much.
Would you wave?
No. The Labour Party has changed so much. Jeremy Corbyn is not sitting as an MP, he doesn’t represent the Labour Party. And I’m taking the Labour Party forwards, not backwards.
Your position on gender was scrutinised after you changed your mind. You could say that it’s fluid. Where do you stand on the trans debate?
We have clarified our position. Huge strides have been made in terms of women’s rights within the Labour movement and nobody wants to roll back any of that, in fact there are still battles to be had, but there is a small minority of people that don’t identify with the gender they were born into and I don’t think we can simply disregard that. We need a fairer way of dealing with it.
How often do you go and see Arsenal play?
As often as I can. I’ve got a season ticket and went to the frustrating draw with Spurs yesterday. When fixtures come out I put them all in my diary and try to go to as many home games as I can. I go in the stands with really longstanding friends and also with my son, who now comes to games with me, which is fantastic. It’s too early to say if they are going to bottle it like they did last season, but as Alex Ferguson used to say, ask me about that after Christmas.
What books do you read?
Mainly I read work stuff, to be honest, and papers. At the moment I’m reading Bev Thomas, The Family Retreat.
How do you think you come across in the papers? Is your coverage fair?
Look, it’s a range. Sometimes yes, often no. I often read things about myself which are patently untrue. But it’s water off a duck’s back. If I used up all my energy worrying about what people write about me I would lose focus. I don’t come storming into the office on a Monday complaining about coverage in the Sunday papers. And there’s quite a lot of rude stuff out there.
What music do you like?
Lots. When I was young I went to the Guildhall School of Music on Saturday mornings, although I was practised rather than accomplished. I was like a wannabe footballer. That opened up a whole world of classical music for me and as a result I’ve listened to a lot of classical music. Equally when I went to university I got into independent music and got into Orange Juice and Edwyn Collins. I play football with his son on a Sunday. Through the kids I’ve obviously been exposed to modern music. When I was photographed for ES Magazine for this piece I forced them to listen to Stormzy’s ‘Firebabe’, which is fantastic. People say I don’t really like Stormzy, but I do.
Where do you eat on date night?
It’s a bit difficult these days as I have a police protection team with me. So date nights aren’t what they used to be. Our last date night was at The Ivy, which was very nice. We also go for a drink in The Pineapple in Kentish Town.
The environment will swing the next election. Explain your green agenda: why, if people care about the environment, should they vote for you?
We have to make the transition to a different economy, a different energy. It is a fantastic opportunity and probably the single biggest opportunity we’ve had in a generation. Just take energy: renewables are cheaper and security is important, so Putin can’t put his boot on our necks. The next generation of jobs. And of course, our net zero obligations. That is a very powerful bundle of reasons why we should not step back from our climate obligations. Almost every business I talk to knows they are going to have to transition and are already doing it, so to pull back like the Government has done is confusing.
Would you be prepared to form a coalition with Lib-Dems?
We’re going for an out and out majority. We need the strength of a Labour government to deliver.
And if you had to?
Like I said, we’re going for a majority.
Brexit? You want to alter our terms, but what you’re proposing hasn’t exactly excited the Europeans…
We’ve left and we’re not going back. That does not mean we can’t do better with the arrangements we’ve got now. There are a number of areas where I think we can do better. I was in the Hague recently and talking about a better security agreement to deal with the gangs that are running the vile trade of putting people into boats to cross the Channel. We can do much better with students, and equally on science and innovation. And we should raise the barriers to trade. Every business that trades with Europe would agree to that.
“Dates are a bit difficult these days as I have a police protection team with me”
The Ulez issue has proved wildly divisive for Londoners. You appeared to be completely against it politically, but where are you on that now?
Ah… [long pause] I would start this by saying, I’ve got two kids, a 15-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl, and I don’t give them dirty water. I don’t want them breathing dirty air, so something has to be done about that. What I want is a scheme that is not disproportionately hitting those who can least afford it, and that was one of the problems we ran into in the Uxbridge and South Ruislip by-election with Ulez.
Could the Tories have found a better mayoral candidate than Susan Hall?
Definitely, for a whole bunch of reasons! Look, the reason Sadiq is doing such a good job is because he is invested in London, he represents the diversity of London, he has his finger on the pulse of London and she doesn’t have that.
What are your plans for London should you be elected?
To work with Sadiq, to work with our councils, to ensure that London continues to be the economic hub that it already is. Hear me out. Growth is the central mission of an incoming Labour government and the description of growth is across the whole of the United Kingdom, but of course we’ve had a lot of growth in places like London and the South-east, and we haven’t had that across the whole country. I want that everywhere and that’s why we want to ensure that we have economic hubs around the country, and that might be the North-west, the North-east, etc etc, and have an intense focus on business, on how we build those hubs… but it can’t be at the expense of London and the South-east, it has to be working with it.
Yet you did suggest to Sadiq that it might be a good idea to dump Ulez, didn’t you, when it transpired that it was electorally disadvantageous?
I discussed with Sadiq the legal framework of Ulez and the legal obligations he is under, and it’s only fair to point out that it is a legal requirement to take action to reduce the pollution in our air. That is a Tory piece of legislation and the first of these schemes was introduced by a Tory mayor. I think the wrong reaction, which is the Prime Minister’s reaction, is to say that we’re going to step back from these commitments altogether. So I’m committed to understanding how we meet these commitments in a way that is fair. The fact that the Prime Minister has walked away from this commitment is weak.
How are you going to cut knife crime in London? It’s escalating terribly.
We want to halve knife crime, but in order to do that we obviously have to have the policing bit of it, an effective response to crime, but we’ve also got to deal with the causes of crime and that would involve us working with young people at school. We definitely need more mental health provision in schools, we need more activities for young people in and around school, too. It’s both the effective response and the preventative bit that matters. We’ve done quite a lot of this in my constituency [Holborn and St Pancras], after there were several fatal stabbings with boys. We started working with schools to make sure that staff could identify trauma in the pupils in their classes. We worked with the hospitals because we figured out that quite often those who were on the wrong end of a knife had previously been involved in other incidents. We worked with the police to try and make sure that when people are arrested, the right information is gathered. And of course to encourage much more community policing. I am really invested in this.
Do you have a message for Evening Standard and ES Magazine readers?
We desperately need change and an incoming Labour government will deliver that change by rebuilding our country and taking it forward. And that obviously includes London.
Favourite joke?
My daughter always asks why anyone would pay to hear me speak when I’m doing a fundraising dinner. Which is fair enough.
