John Kelly, the Marine general who served as Donald Trump's White House Chief of Staff from 2017 to 2019, has frequently criticized the former president's leadership and character. But in a set of interviews with The New York Times published Tuesday, he went a step further, describing his former boss as a "fascist" and saying he decided to speak out after the Republican candidate suggested that he would use the military to crack down on his political opponents.
According to Kelly, it isn't the first time Trump has expressed a desire to set the military loose on his rivals. Trump repeatedly suggested doing so since his first year in office, he told the Times, chafing at the constant reminders of why he could not use the military against U.S. citizens.
In response to a question about whether he thought Trump was a "fascist," Kelly first read aloud a definition of the term he found online. “Well, looking at the definition of fascism: It’s a far-right authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy,” he said.
Kelly said Trump fit that definition, adding that the former president thought "those kinds of things" would "would work better in terms of running America."
"Certainly the former president is in the far-right area, he’s certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators — he has said that. So he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure," he said. Later in the interview, he recalled that Trump occasionally praised Hitler, the former president reportedly saying the German dictator "did some good things."
Kelly was secretary of Homeland Security under Trump in the first half of 2017 before transitioning to White House chief of staff. He played a key role in carrying out the former president's agenda, including the separation of children from their families at the southern border. But he grew increasingly frustrated at Trump's conduct and lack of respect for the Constitution, he said. For much of his tenure, Kelly found himself explaining concepts like the rule of law to Trump, who valued personal loyalty above all else.
“He and I talked about it — it was a new concept for him, I guess is the best way to put it, and I don’t think it’s one he ever totally accepted," Kelly said. Personal loyalty “is virtually everything to him," he continued, and Trump was disappointed to learn that what he referred to as "my generals" would not offer him unconditional support. Many of those generals who served during the Trump administration have since condemned their former commander in chief, including former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley, who has said Trump is "fascist to the core."
Asked about Trump's view of the presidency, Kelly responded that the Republican preferred "the dictator approach to government." Trump “never accepted the fact that he wasn’t the most powerful man in the world — and by power, I mean an ability to do anything he wanted, anytime he wanted,” Kelly said.
After two tumultuous years marred by criticism of either enabling a man like Trump or not aiding him enough, Kelly resigned and used his newfound freedom to criticize his former boss, especially over his "dishonesty" and outspoken praise for authoritarian leaders. In 2023, Kelly confirmed reports that Trump looked down on disabled veterans and referred to Americans wounded, captured or killed in action as "losers and suckers."
“The time in Paris was not the only time that he ever said it,” Kelly said, referring to reports that Trump complained about having to visit a cemetery where Americans killed during World War I were buried. “Whenever John McCain’s name came up, he’d go through this rant about him being a loser, and all those people were suckers, and why do you people think that people getting killed are heroes? And he’d go through this rant.”
Despite his long list of grievances and concerns about Trump, Kelly stressed that as a former military officer he would not endorse either major-party candidate for president. But if the race was an empathy contest, it's clear who Kelly would pick.
Asked whether Trump had the ability to sympathize with others, Kelly had a simple answer: "No."
