The story of Malcolm Naden evading police for years after murdering two women captivated the nation, but former Detective Inspector Ricky Hennessy was one of few people who looked "evil" in the eye.
Mr Hennessy led the investigation and manhunt of Australia's most wanted fugitive, who was captured in the Upper Hunter in 2012. He spoke in depth about "one of the biggest challenges" of his career on a podcast with fellow former police officer Brent Sanders.
Mr Sanders' Crime Insiders: Detectives - The Hunt for Malcolm Naden has been named in the top five 'crime podcasts you need to hear in 2024' by LiSTNR.
"I've done over 30 interviews now, and I think it's still one of the most popular ones that people revisit and listen to," Mr Sanders told the Newcastle Herald.
"I think folks would have perhaps listened to it with a different expectation of what the officer-in-charge would be like. Ricky was so calm, so open and honest in this discussion. I think that's part of what led to the interview being so well received."
Mr Hennessy took over the Naden investigation when the fugitive had already been on the run for close to seven years after murdering Lateesha Nolan and Kristy Scholes. He divulged on the podcast how Naden's waning discipline when breaking into homes and "gorging himself" on whatever food was inside over the years led police to nabbing the highly wanted man.
The former Detective Inspector spoke about his first interaction with Naden, and how his mind quickly switched to how he could get him to confess.
Mr Hennessy was one of two officers Naden was comfortable speaking with - something he was able to do even after Naden shot his friend from the Police Academy.
"I put that down to our treatment of him whilst he was in custody," Mr Hennessy said on the podcast.
"If you treat a paedophile like a paedophile, they're gonna behave like one to you. Likewise in Malcolm's case if you're treating him like a cold-blooded murderer, that's all you're gonna get."
The approach worked - Mr Hennessy and his partner were able to extract a 25-page "graphic" confession from Naden after lengthy interviews.
Mr Sanders said he believed Mr Hennessy's "very deep interest" in the psychology of violent offenders came across strongly in the interview
"He was a very insightful guy," the podcast host said. "He had a genuine desire to get inside the mind of Naden... and he was extremely motivated by wanting to get closure for the families of the victims involved.
"One of the families involved had been quite open - very understandably - about their frustration with the process and how it hadn't been brought to a close and I think reading between the lines, that was really one of the major motivating factors for him."
But the moment that really stuck out to Mr Sanders was when he asked Mr Hennessy if he thought Naden was "born bad".
"In Malcolm's case, I think it was a combination of his environment and mental health factors," Mr Hennessy replied.
"I don't think he was born bad, but certainly I recall there was one period of time where he turned and looked at me on the banks of the Macquarie River when we were looking for [the remains of] Lateesha.
"It was quite deliberate, he said something - which I can't say for legal reasons - to me and it was designed to shock me, and he looked me dead in the eye and I thought at that time 'that's what evil looks like'.
"But aside from that moment Malcolm to me was... normal, he was quiet, he was articulate, well spoken.
"If you'd met him on the street, you would not suspect him of the murders he committed."
"I thought that was really quite poignant," Mr Sanders told The Herald. "He did say that he believes a major motivation to Naden going bush for seven years is he knew that he had to take himself out of society otherwise he would not have been able to stop himself from re-offending, which was another really interesting insight."
Mr Sanders said he believed Mr Hennessy was so candid because he had just resigned from the force when the interview was conducted in mid-2023, but speaking to a fellow former cop may also have helped create a level of comfort.
"I think while they're still in the job they can sometimes be a little reluctant to open up, for a number of reasons, not least of all, the very sensitive nature of the case and families involved," Mr Sanders said.
"A lot of the interviews I do, probably 98 per cent of them, are with police who have retired or resigned and I think at that point they're very open to having a bit of a chat.
"And I think, be it right or wrong, police can tend to be more inclined to speak with other ex-police.
"There's a sort of a respect there because you know where they're coming from, they know where you're coming from.
"So when I sit in front of the police I can take a few steps further into the discussion because I'm talking about walking into interview rooms, how that feels because I've been there myself and I think it creates perhaps a level of respect the across the table."
