IAN Murray has claimed his fellow minister's figures suggesting 100,000 pensioners will be pushed into poverty because of the Winter Fuel Payment cut are “incorrect” in a spat with Stephen Flynn.
In a heated exchange at the first Scottish Affairs Committee of the term, SNP Westminster leader Flynn asked the Scottish Secretary to confirm how many pensioners in Scotland will be pushed into poverty as a result of the decision to means-test the payment.
He referenced Government analysis published on Tuesday that said cuts to the allowance could force 100,000 pensioners into relative fuel poverty in England and Wales.
Internal government modelling shows the decision to remove the benefit from millions of pensioners will push about 50,000 more people into relative poverty next year, and another 50,000 by the end of the decade.
But Murray suggested his Government’s analysis was flawed and he was unable to supply a figure for how many pensioners would be pushed into poverty north of the Border.
Referencing the analysis which was published in a letter from Work and Pensions Secretary Liz Kendall, Flynn said to Murray: “How many of those pensioners will be put into poverty in Scotland?”
Murray replied: “The analysis that DWP [Department for Work and Pensions] has done didn’t include the triple lock, it didn’t include the Household Support Fund and it didn’t include the massive increase in the uptake of pension credit, so the figures in that I would challenge in terms of the overall analysis.”
He went on: “Looking at these figures in isolation I don’t think they are helpful. I think the published 100,000 is actually not including those three big elements of support for not just our poorest pensioners but all pensioners.”
Flynn hit back and said: “With all due respect Secretary of State I’m referring to your own Government colleague's letter and the question was quite simple; if there’s 100,000 pensioners in the UK that are going to be getting pushed into poverty, how many of those are in Scotland?
“I assume as the Secretary of State for Scotland you’ve asked your colleagues.”
Murray repeated his argument before warning Flynn about “fearmongering” that people will be pushed into poverty “without having the actual figures”.
As the spat intensified, Flynn accused Murray of not being transparent.
“So the Secretary of State is making reference to the state pension triple lock which does increase for 75% of pensioners who sit on the old form of the state pension rather than the new state pension. I think he should be a little more transparent in relation to the differential there,” Flynn said.
Murray then tried to interrupt Flynn before the SNP Westminster leader said: “It’s me asking the questions. Can he confirm he will now go and ask his colleagues how many people in Scotland are going to be pushed into poverty as a result of the decisions of his Government?”
Murray then said he felt the baseline figure in the Government analysis was “incorrect”.
The Secretary of State for Scotland just told me that he doesn’t believe these figures to be accurate. As such, didn’t have a clue how many pensioners in Scotland are about to be pushed into poverty by his Government. https://t.co/YtwVkG5WSK
— Stephen Flynn MP (@StephenFlynnSNP) November 20, 2024
He said: “I’m loathed to comment on a piece of documentation that I think is incorrect.”
Flynn replied: “You think your own colleague’s work is incorrect?”
Murray then said: “It’s probably accurate but it doesn’t include all the factors.”
Flynn then once again accused Murray of being “disingenuous” about the triple lock.
Following the meeting, Flynn said: "By his own admission, Ian Murray is completely clueless over the damaging impact of the Labour Party's Winter Fuel Payment cuts on pensioners in Scotland.
"With his own Government's analysis showing 100,000 pensioners in England and Wales could be pushed into fuel poverty as a result of Labour's cuts, it's vital the Scottish Secretary does his job and publishes a full analysis of the impact on Scottish pensioners.
"Ian Murray should know what impact his government's winter fuel cuts are having on Scotland - and he should have been arguing against the cuts, instead of voting for them."
In September, the new Labour Government voted to scrap the universal Winter Fuel Payment, stripping around 10 million pensioners of cash to help pay their heating bills.
The analysis from Kendall came just as temperatures plunged and parts of Scotland experienced their first snowfall of the year.
Earlier this week, we told how temperatures dropped in the Tulloch Bridge area of the Highlands to as low as -7.8C.
Age Scotland said “the reality of removing the universal Winter Fuel Payment will be setting in for older people on low and modest incomes across the country”.
