On this week’s episode of Fortune‘s Leadership Next podcast, co-hosts Alan Murray and Michal Lev-Ram talk with GSK CEO Emma Walmsley about the future of A.I. in the pharmaceutical industry, the company's new RSV vaccine for the over-60 set, and how she developed her leadership style.
Listen to the episode or read the full transcript below.
Transcript
Alan Murray: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte, who, like me, are exploring the changing rules of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.
Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. I’m Alan Murray.
Michal Lev-Ram: And I’m Michal Lev-Ram.
Lev-Ram: Alan, today's guest is a woman who has been on our Most Powerful Women list for several years running, the CEO of U.K.-based pharma company GSK, Emma Walmsley.
Murray: That's right, Michal, and she came to the Fortune office. I'm so sorry you weren't here for it. She was there in person.
Lev-Ram: I know. I felt very left out.
Murray: Emma became CEO of GSK in 2017. It was, frankly, kind of a tough time for the company. It was a bit of a turnaround job. It didn't have the drug pipeline that many of its competitors have. And she's been on a path to manage that turnaround.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, and we were really lucky to catch her just a few days after the company's RSV vaccine had been approved by the FDA. This is a really big deal. Obviously, RSV has been a hot topic for all the wrong reasons. But this is huge for them, and for, you know, the industry. So we were really anxious to ask her about that. And of course, about leadership more broadly. Because, you know, she's shattered some ceilings, and she's gone through a lot of challenges at the company, as you said.
Murray: I thought that was fascinating. I'm not going to give it away right here, but she had some really interesting things to say about how she developed her leadership style. It's not the standard stuff you heard from CEOs 10 years ago. So here she is, Emma Walmsley.
Lev-Ram: Emma, thank you so much for joining us today.
Emma Walmsley: Great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Lev-Ram: I want to start off with something newsy, and that's this new approval for the RSV vaccine for adults 60 or older. What do you see as the potential? I mean, this hasn't been the biggest part of your business to date, the vaccine side, but what do you see as the potential here? And how meaningful is it to get this approval?
Emma Walmsley: Well, you know, it's extremely meaningful, in the sense that the world has woken up to the power and importance of adult vaccination. I think, you know, we're all in a very different place now than we were three years ago. And, you know, if you just step back, actually, we were one of the pioneers in adult vaccination with our shingles vaccine, Shingrix, which we launched in 2017. That's a horrible disease that impacts you know, one in three of us, and we have over 90% efficacy to protect for that. RSV is a disease that many hadn't heard of not that long ago, and perhaps might associate with infants, because it's quite common in very young children. But in fact, the much bigger burden of disease is in older adults. You have over 175,000 hospitalizations every year in the U.S., and, you know, a really quite meaningful death rate as well. It's very exciting that GSK has the first approval in history of an RSV vaccine. We do see it, you know, not only as having meaningful impact on health for those that represent 94% of hospitalizations, i.e. those that are really at risk here, we have coincidentally 94% efficacy. So that's a really impressive protection rate. You can also, we know, we have studies that show you can have it administered with a flu vaccine at the same time, and both still maintain their efficacy. And we're going to be very excited to see as the data matures, you know, how long that protection lasts. Is it an annual vaccine? Or can we go for two, or maybe even three years to keep people protected? So, this is not just in human impact, and you know, there are over a billion over-60s in the world. But also we see it as a multibillion opportunity, and that adds to the more than 20 vaccines we actually do have in our portfolio, and we're very invested in future innovation and adult vaccination as well.
Murray: And I'm glad you're doing stuff for the over-60s. We really, really appreciate that. Look, it's interesting the way you talk about it, that we've been awakened to the power of vaccines. We had Albert Bourla from Pfizer on the show and we had Stéphane Bancel from Moderna. Both of them talked about how the pandemic experience really enlivened their staffs. And you were part of that, but didn't get to the finish line.
Walmsley: Well, listen, it was an extraordinary experience for CEOs in every industry to lead through the pandemic. When you add to that our response ability to mobilize and contribute, you know, is definitely something that the whole company put full heart and hands and resources into. In fact, we did contribute very meaningfully in terms of treatments for COVID. We did, I think, cumulatively more than 3 billion in sales for Xevudy, which is a biologic for those who weren't able to be protected, or for whom protection didn't work durably and, you know, really took great pride in our mobilization around that. In terms of vaccines, we do actually have approved vaccines now, in our partnership with Sanofi. And it was, you know, I'll happily say it was a bit denting at the time not to be first out the gate, and we were disappointed when that trial got delayed. But in the end, I personally could not be more delighted that the whole industry showed up in partnership at such pace in partnership, not only with our competitors, but also with governments with regulators. And you know, we're now moving, I think it's even today that the pandemic, as a national emergency is declared to be transitioning. And we see plenty of both opportunity and responsibility to innovate in an endemic market. We'll be living with COVID as we do with with flu, and I think mRNA is an exciting technology. We're very invested in our partnership with CureVak and intend to invest more. So culturally, I think, you know, health care has never mattered more in the world than we've had this bright light shone on it, whether it's the individuals, families, companies, countries—the link between a healthy society and a productive society has never been clearer.
Murray: You and I were part of a conversation recently about these incredible new data tools. How is that going to change your business?
Walmsley: Well, I think it's a really profoundly important question for every leader to be asking at the moment, and I actually think it's going to change everything. I am a technology optimist. You know, at GSK, we say the purpose of the company is to combine science, technology, and talent to get ahead of disease together. And every word there counts. And when we talk about tech, that's platform tech, the kinds of things I was just talking about in vaccines, or it might be also in medicines and manufacturing, but it's also data tech. And when you overlay that with all the advances we see now in the world, and understanding of genetics and genomics, and this vast explosion of data, there is a real opportunity for next-gen technologies to improve the biggest challenge of our sector, which is the productivity of R&D. It can take a decade, cost billions of dollars, and on average has a 90% failure rate to, you know, discover, develop, and invent new medicines and vaccines. It's the most profound challenge of our industry, and also of society. And, you know, when we talk about the burden of health care costs, the single best thing we can do is innovate more, think of all those diseases that don't have solutions, or we're seeing the excitement we're all getting when we're seeing emerging solutions, like with Alzheimer's and neurodegeneration, you know, there are so many spaces where we still don't have solutions in oncology as well in other infectious diseases. So, I think that, you know, the foundational first part of how generative A.I. is going to contribute to every company is in the productivity and the efficiency and the reshaping of roles, you know, across the whole value chain. What really excites me is when these technologies are going to drive innovation and faster solutions. And then when you think, you know, we all think about what's happening inside our company. If you are a, you know, a focused biopharma company, what's also exciting is, how's it going to change the full service of health care? How is it going to change—and we know that's happening—the way doctors work, the way they spend more time caring and less time on admin? How is it already informing you know, remote care? How is it going to inform between data and robotics? How surgeries are performed? How are we going to be looking at the visualization and earlier intervention and anticipation of diagnosis of disease? How is it going to drive access and equity? I mean, there are so many ways in which human ingenuity can be, I hope and believe, combined with this opportunity to this technology is to help us get better at solving one thing we all care about, which is health and wellness.
Murray: How long have you been in this job now?
Walmsley: Six and a bit, yes.
Murray: Six and a bit years. And pharmaceutical companies can be slow moving for all the reasons you've already highlighted, you know, developing new products. So you took over a company that had some challenges, and on top of that you had an activist, Elliott Management [Advisors], get into your stock and push for some major changes. You spun out your consumer business. I wonder what that's been like for you to deal with activists from the inside?
Walmsley: You know, it won't surprise you at all, to have me say that I'm not going to comment on an individual shareholder. What I stay really focused on is keeping the organization focused on what we're here for, and not distracted. I think that is the job of the CEO in these circumstances is to stand in front of it, to absorb it, to engage, and to, you know, really stay focused on the priorities we laid out. And you rightly said, I was brought in to lead an aggressive change agenda for GSK. And, you know, the diversity wasn't necessarily the visible one, as, as you've alluded to, Michal. You know, I came as an insider-outsider from building up the consumer business. We sought to fundamentally change, you know, most things, the group structure, so we built up the consumer business with a series of deals with Novartis, first then with Pfizer, then with a de-merger, and frankly, did one of the biggest de-mergers in history. The first pure-play consumer health care company with Haleon, and really pleased with that. But the most exciting thing, in some ways, strategically, for that is the strategic unlock of the balance sheet it gave to GSK to invest again in innovation. You know, we increased our R&D spend by 30% during that time. We were able to take out a dividend from the de-merger to strengthen our capacity to invest in future growth. And we now started, last year, on this new five-year chapter, sort of '21 to '26, of meaningfully competitive profitable growth again led through innovation. Very much focused on vaccines, preventions of disease, but also specialty medicines, pioneering, and innovation in HIV. I mean, you know, you still got 1.2 million people in the world being infected with HIV; 38,000, in the U.S. alone. And there's a lot of innovation we've led the way through in that. Two-thirds of our pipeline is in infectious diseases more broadly. Continuing in other specialty medicines emerging in oncology. We've got a lot of confidence in that five-year outlook. We've started it extremely well. Then the question will be, how do the next five-year chapters—because we work on these long horizons in our sector, and you know, I'm really excited with the progress we've made. We've got a lot more to do.
Murray: And you have some, as you said, you have some ammunition for acquisition. You can share your plans with us here if you like.
Walmsley: Well, we've just announced some recent deals ,which we're delighted with—you know, building on our vaccines portfolio with the acquisition of Affinivax and pneumococcal disease. We also, you know, bought Sierra Oncology. Very much looking forward to seeing how, you know, hopefully getting the approval for that in coming weeks, in myelofibrosis. And just a couple of weeks ago, we announced the acquisition of Bellus, which is in chronic cough, an absolutely hideous illness where I mean, you've got people who, I think it's 28 million people, who are living with chronic cough that can be like, 900 times a day, with horrible quality of life implication—mainly women—by the way of that, and we think we may have a differentiated medicine there. So, you know, we stated the intent in this change agenda for GSK, to put innovation back as our number-one priority and doing what we're here to do, which is deliver for patients. We're making good progress. There's always more to do that will be organic and or inorganic. And, you know, that's, that's what we're focused on.
Lev-Ram: I have one other question. Just real quick going back to this not-so-fun topic, but without naming any names, because I recognize that you can't comment specifically, but somebody out there who was agitating at some point suggested that you reapply for your job, and I'm wondering, as a leader of a very important company and someone who's had a long and impressive career, like what is that? What's the thought process when you receive a request like that?
Walmsley: Well, look, first of all, you shouldn't take on these jobs if you're not—they're an enormous privilege, and they are a serious responsibility, and you cannot take them on if you don't have both the courage of your convictions, the ability to listen, and sufficiently thick skin, to, you know, weather some media provocation or otherwise, whenever, whenever it comes. I think in the end, what matters in this situation is also, you know, open dialogue, the support which I've had wholeheartedly from our board and just staying focused on my job and what I'm here to do, and that's exactly what we're doing, and you just have to, you know, not worry about it too much.
Lev-Ram: Okay, we're going to get to the leadership questions here. And you know, we already kind of alluded to this, but you are the only woman CEO of a major pharmaceutical company. And have to wonder, as somebody who's worked across our Most Powerful Women list of events, you know, the kind of the whole universe for a while now, I'm just always curious, is that a distinction that is important to you? Do you think about it at all? Do you feel a sense of responsibility there?
Walmsley: You know, I don't know how it is for you, Michal. I personally, I have always tried not to define my career by my gender first. But that doesn't mean I'm not extremely thoughtful, and have a tremendous sense of responsibility as well to highlight what's possible. You know, you have to be conscious of your responsibilities, if you like, as a role model, but also to highlight what needs to change. And we are a long way, a long, long way from being anywhere close to the kind of representation in leadership—whether that's of companies or governments or institutions, that better represents the societies that we serve. And I don't think we should ever slow down or relax about our responsibilities to make those changes. And I'm really proud of how focused we are at GSK on our DE&I agenda. In part on representation, by the way, we have 50% of our managers in the company are women, and 42% of our VPs and above are women. Half of my direct reports are women. The head of our U.S. business, our China Business, our ViiV CEO, so these are P&L big earning jobs, are women, our CFO and our CEO are women. And...
Murray: So this has been a priority for you.
Walmsley: My priority is to get ahead of disease and serve patients, shareholders, and us to have thriving people. I have always believed, and never more than as a CEO, that we are completely dependent on the quality, engagement, alignment, and glorious diversity of our teams. And, you know, I violently reject the notion of CEOs of superheroes. I think, by definition and leadership, it is about helping others collectively and individually to do more together than we can ever do individually. And I think it's a preposterous notion that we should restrict our universe of selection of talent to one segment of society that all looks the same. So, you know, it's not the core of my purpose, as I said, but I just want to do the best I can for GSK. And the science shows, by the way, that diverse teams do better, the confrontation of ideas does better. The—by the way, that arguing in person sometimes make things, you know, gets to a better truth. So I do believe in this, and I, you know, I'm of a generation that has definitely lived through some pretty horrible experiences along the journey, and I really hope for my daughter and for my sons that we live in a more equitable society. But it's not just representation. We're very committed at GSK, for example, to broader representation in our clinical trials. You know, that's right at the core of what we do. We now have 100% of our clinical trials that have full sort of demographic and better representation diversity. For example, one of the biggest drugs we're working on now is for Hepatitis B. Three hundred million people in the world, okay? Three hundred million are living with Hep B. You've got nearly a million deaths a year from Hep B-related causes. It's the main cause of liver cancer, huge proportion of patients are of Asian descent, and that's why we have more than half of people in our trials, you know, representing the patients we serve. But the same would be true in the way we look with a different demographic of our HIV trial. So I think everything we do should be more inclusive of the world we serve.
Murray: You're speaking here very passionately about leadership, and we're learning something about your leadership style in the process. But can you talk about where that where that came from? Who taught you leadership? Where did your instincts in in leading a big company like GSK come from? Well, I love it when you actually when you actually think about your questions, because it means you're going to answer them. You know, sometimes we have people on this show who are here to say what they want to say, without thinking too much about what we're asking.
Walmsley: You didn't tell me anything you were going to ask.
Lev-Ram: It's the best kind of interview.
Walmsley: Yeah. So, you know how sometimes people say to you, who is your mentor? Or who is—and there is no one answer. I've been incredibly blessed in my work. I think, actually, the most profound influence on me, and you will see with many people, if they really tell the truth on this, it's often the answer, I think, was my dad. My father died last year. And he was a serving officer in the Navy.
Murray: Vice Admiral.
Walmsley: Yeah, well, yeah. But so anyway, and anyway, he was a submariner, so not an easy life away at sea. But he was profoundly committed to a sense of service and duty and hard work, actually. And I think that was a really big influence on me almost, ironically. I have no, almost no business background in my...
Murray: Did you ever think you would be a CEO?
Walmsley: Absolutely not. But I—absolutely not. But, you know, I mean, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, my dad was in the forces, my grandparents were doctors, actually. Or, on the other side, a farmer. So we're literally, this is like the opposite of a business background. But I've always been extremely curious, hungry to learn, explore the world, and been lucky enough to do work that was very inspiring for me. I never had a particular career plan. I mean, I look at the next generation, my own kids, I'm just blown away by how many kind of internships and stuff they do. My entire work experience was waitressing till I left college. And then I just went for the job that would pay me the most, you know, the beginning to pay off my debt. And then I went into L'Oreal and was lucky enough to be sponsored. And I will always be profoundly grateful for that. To work with them all over the world, in London, Paris, New York five years, and then Shanghai and, you know, through all of that experience, you learn from the leaders and managers who inspire you to give more, to do more, to be braver, and you also learn from a couple of experiences where you go, I'm never going to be like that.
Murray: Without naming names—
Walmsley: No, I won't.
Murray: But stylistically, are there things you saw in leadership that were common practices that you said, I'm not doing that?
Walmsley: The moments that are always inspiring are when you see leaders listening deeply, asking questions, rather than pontificating, or setting the direction, or particularly telling you how to do something. Likewise, I think it's incredibly helpful when you set really clear and explicit objectives together, and sign up for there. And then, you know, are able to manage to those, as opposed to micromanaging it. I think that the best examples are when leaders tell you why. Not what. And, and, you know, I feel really lucky to have lived all over the world, because you just get exposed to different cultures and, and it's very humbling, actually. And I think that the more you realize what you don't know, the more curious you become, you know. We've got two ears and one mouth for a reason. And I get very passionate about the work I do, but I'm always most inspired when I get a chance to reconnect and visit the people who are doing it. And I was very lucky early in my career to have exposure to some brilliant brains and leadership. And yeah, I feel really grateful for that.
Lev-Ram: I feel like, Alan, I have to say, doing this podcast, I not only get so much amazing advice for the workplace, but also parenting advice. There are a lot of takeaways.
Walmsley: I don't know—if you asked my kids, I don't know what they would say.
[Laughter]
Lev-Ram: Okay, so I told you we weren't going to ask about the coronation. And I won't, but I, but I do want to know, I introduced you as Emma. I should have said Dame Emma.
Walmsley: Oh, no. Emma is definitely better.
Lev-Ram: What does it mean? So you were appointed Dame, commander of the British Empire for services to the pharmaceutical industry and business? Just tell us what that means.
Walmsley: Well, first of all, I definitely prefer to be called Emma, but it is part of a recognition system in the U.K., which has a lot of history, and an enormous amount of protocol and governance around how contributions to British society, on behalf of British society, beyond the U.K. are recognized. It's, you know, and it involves a degree of ceremony.
Murray: Do you get a hat?
Walmsley: You get a lot. Hats and ribbons. But listen, I don't want to make light of it.
Lev-Ram: It's an honor, it's a big honor.
Murray: I suspect your father, the Vice Admiral, was extraordinarily proud at that moment.
Walmsley: It's lovely of you to say that. And I think, you know, the real thing is when people say, what inspires you, I think most daughters are spending their lives trying to make their dad proud. So...
Murray: I wish that was true of my daughters.
Walmsley I bet you it is.
Murray: Emma Walmsley, what a great conversation. Thank you so much for being here—and for actually answering our questions, and...
Lev-Ram: Thinking about them.
Walmsley: Yeah, I'm sure somebody will want to edit me afterwards. It's been great. Michal, I loved seeing you remotely. I hope we get a chance to meet in real life.
Lev-Ram: Likewise, likewise, thank you so much.
Murray: Leadership Next is edited and produced by Alexis Haut. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Our executive producer is Megan Arnold. Leadership Next is a product of Fortune Media. For even more Fortune content, use the promo code LN25. That’ll get you 25% off our annual subscription at Fortune.com/subscribe.
Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune‘s editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.
