The case of the Somerton Man has baffled detectives and amateur sleuths for decades.
University of Adelaide professor Derek Abbott joined us earlier to tackle all your curly questions about the case, alongside renowned forensic genealogist Colleen Fitzpatrick and host of Radio National podcast The Somerton Man Mystery, Fiona Ellis-Jones.
Catch up on the full Q&A below.
Key events
- So what now? Is there still more to learn about the Somerton Man's story?
- Is it easy to make the error of getting caught up in a mystery? What can we learn from this?
- What was the Somerton Man's last known address?
- Where did the first DNA hits come from?
- I thought hair only contained mitochondrial DNA, so how did you obtain the Somerton Man's autosomal DNA?
- Is it still possible that the Somerton Man was a spy?
- Is there any way to prove how the Somerton Man died?
- The DNA explained: What type is it? Can it be used to find a cause of death? And has it been cross-checked?
- How did the Somerton Man mystery become such a large story?
- Why did nobody report the Somerton Man missing?
- Why do you think the Somerton Man case has been solved?
Live updates
By Bridget Judd
'Some answers may come soon, some may take years'
Unfortunately this is where we'll have to leave this afternoon's Q&A, but thanks for following along — and a huge thanks to Derek Abbott for lending his time to tackle all your curly questions.
Before we go, we'll leave you with his final thoughts:
It's time to sign off. All the questions I received today were really great and it is amazing to see the public interest not only in the case itself but also the science behind it.
A big thank you to all of you! For Colleen and myself, finding the name "Charles Webb" is by no means the end; it is merely the beginning of another long journey to answer a whole set of new questions.
All of today's questions highlight there is still al lot of work to be done. We will do our best to follow up on these questions. Some answers may come soon, some may take years, and some may never be answered. Stay tuned.
Can't get enough of the case? We've got you covered:
By Bridget Judd
So what now? Is there still more to learn about the Somerton Man's story?
What now? With this massive breakthrough in the case. How will it help discovering the truth of Charles Webb’s sad ending? There is certainly more to this fascinating story that needs to uncovered. – Natalie
Here's Derek Abbott:
I don’t know! However, my naïve hope that his name will lead to some clues. This is ongoing research, and I’m sure more and more will turn up over the years. It could be a never-ending story.
And spy conspiracies may never go away. In some sense an incomplete story is always an engaging one, as it will speak to people in different ways and people will fill in the dots in a way that makes it meaningful to them. I
n the same way that those musical compositions that can be reinterpreted in many ways are the most fun, I’m sure this will happen to the story of the Somerton man. There could be several completely different Hollywood versions in years to come.
By Bridget Judd
What's next for the case (and for Derek Abbott)?
What happens now, are there more elements of this mystery you're still committed to investigating, or are you moving on to something else?
- Savvas
Here's Derek Abbott:
I will still stay with this case to help tease out some of the remaining questions. The way I operate is to work on multiple projects all at once, and this is only a tiny part of what I do. I am open to solving more cases if any come my way. It was a great privilege and a lot of fun working with Colleen Fitzpatrick; we made a great team and I hope we have future projects together.
The details of how we worked together through good and bad days and supported each other is a whole story for another time. Another great mystery I have been working on for several years is the Voynich Manuscript. These historical mysteries really need engineers to work on them; in this case we use what is called “computational linguistics.” Stay tuned.
By Bridget Judd
Is it easy to make the error of getting caught up in a mystery? What can we learn from this?
Our next question comes from John, who asks:
Is it easy to make the error of getting too caught-up in a mystery without checking a list of people without a death certificate? What lessons can be learned from this? – John
Here's Fiona-Ellis Jones:
Let’s assume that Professor Abbott is correct with his finding that the Somerton Man is Carl Charles Webb. While that’s an incredible breakthrough in the case, it still leaves many unanswered questions. Not least, how an electrical engineer from Melbourne came to be found dead on an Adelaide beach with no apparent cause of death.
In terms of the death certificate, we’re talking about a completely different time. Recordkeeping was obviously not digitised. The post-war civilian population was generally regarded as more transient. It wasn’t “unusual” to go missing (or indeed, pass away) without official documentation.
In the limited historical documentation we managed to uncover on Webb, it’s clear his estranged wife had assumed he had moved away.
Derek Abbott adds:
There is no automated way of searching for people without a death date on BDM databases. The lesson learned is it would be helpful if governments implemented this. It would also be good if the BDM platforms were integrated across the country so if someone died in another state it would be easier to find.
By Bridget Judd
For decades, no-one came forward to identify the Somerton Man. What can we learn from that?
Our next one comes from Michelle, who says:
Hi I'm so glad someone like Professor Abbott didn't give up & this man's surviving family & the police who worked on this case over the year now have closure I can't imagine what it's been like for them not to know If people only came forward earlier with details of missing family or friends what science can do now it incredible Go research & science - Michelle
Here's Derek Abbott:
Thank you. And yes, this is very sad. And this is why the efforts of Jodie Ward, who heads up the National Program for Unidentified and Missing People, are of importance to facilitate more coordination between States to ensure this sort of thing is minimised.
By Bridget Judd
What part of the Somerton Man's identity surprised you the most?
What part of his identity surprised you the most and why? – Seb
Here's Derek Abbott:
To be honest I’m trained to be dispassionate about any hypothesis, so nothing really surprised me. Though I am human and so wild coincidences do delight me, and in this case it has emerged that his brother-in-law Thomas Gerald Keane worked for the J. C. Williamson Company and travelled with the Ballet Russe.
Spoiler alert: There seems to be a ballet connection to this case after all!
By Bridget Judd
Do we have other public documents about Carl Webb?
Do we have copies of newspaper articles in the big capital cities seeking answers on Webb’s identity? Do we have other public documents for C Webb e.g birth certificate, marriage license etc? – Peter
Here's Derek Abbott:
I have not found any articles searching for him other than his divorce notice in the paper citing grounds of desertion. If anyone finds others do let me know. I do have his birth and marriage certificate.
What happened to the Somerton Man's wife?
Somerton man’s ex wife is supposed to have died in NSW. Did she remarry ? Where and when did she pass away ?
Here's Derek Abbott:
I only have found anecdotal evidence that she remarried but had found no record. This is still work in progress to track this down. She passed away in NSW in the late 1990s but to nail down the record we need to first find the name change. This is in progress.
By Bridget Judd
What can the death notices tell us?
It's interesting that Charles' name was mentioned in his father's death notice in 1939 and his mother's in 1946, but omitted from his sister Gladys's in 1955. None of the 3 brothers were mentioned in Gladys's; 2 were known to be deceased by 1955, but not Charles.
- Chrissy
Here's Derek Abbott:
Yes, Colleen & I saw that too early on. That is indeed interesting and an indicator that Charles had dropped off the radar.
By Bridget Judd
If genetic genealogy techniques are being used more to solve crimes, do legal changes need to be made?
(Related topic prompted by Somerton Man case, discussed on triplej's hack yesterday) If Australian police are intending to use generic genealogy techniques to help solve crimes what changes would need to be made to existing laws? (ie. personal data privacy) For example, if someone requested removal of their DNA records from a genealogy website would this invalidate its use as evidence in a DNA criminal database? Also, thanks & well done for extensive coverage of this very interesting case. Cheers, Danny.
- Danny
Here's Derek Abbott:
Wow. This a great question beyond my pay grade. But I can answer your question about removal of DNA from a genealogy database from a practical viewpoint.
First, just because one person choses to remove their DNA doesn’t stop there being literally hundreds of other distant cousins on there for triangulation to be done. We will still find a person anyway using this technique.
In the USA, what happens next is that identification is not actually used as the evidence anyway. It’s just used by police to gather traditional evidence to make the conviction. So, in the case of the Golden State Killer, he was first identified using the technique that found the Somerton Man.
The police then tracked him, and the evidence that convicted him was traditional DNA on a paper cup the man threw on a street. That DNA then matched the DNA from a crime scene. So, if one of his distant relatives removes their DNA genealogical data off a website it would make absolutely no difference to the outcome.
The police would still make their conviction based on the traditional evidence.
By Bridget Judd
Is it possible that the wrong DNA has been tested?
Is there a possibility that the hair found in the plaster cast could have come from one of those making the cast?
- Ric
Here's Derek Abbott:
The plaster bust was moulded directly off the dead body. So the hairs are actually standing on end in a manner that is obviously from the body. Confirmatory evidence is that the hair’s DNA led to Charles Webb and not Paul Lawson who made the bust.
If there were any Lawsons on the tree that would indeed be a concern. But no Lawson’s were on the tree at all. The police also have Paul Lawson’s DNA as a matter of procedure, but I doubt the Coroner will want to see that.
The Coroner will probably be more interested in matching the hair’s DNA to that of the exhumed body, to tick all the boxes.
By Bridget Judd
Have modern scientists reviewed the autopsy findings? Do they have theories about the cause of death?
Our next question comes from Sasha, who asks:
Have modern scientists reviewed the autopsy findings and do they have theories on the cause of death? – Sasha
Here's Fiona-Ellis Jones:
Good question Sasha. As far as I am aware, the initial autopsy findings are part of the ongoing investigation. But exactly how big a part, I’m not sure. This is still very much an active cold case.
The SA Police exhumed the body of the Somerton Man last year to carry out DNA extraction. It’s important to note that the DNA used by Professor Abbott and his team was not extracted from the body; but rather from hair fibres found on the original plaster cast bust.
SA Police have not confirmed Professor Abbott’s findings, however, detectives appear to be quietly optimistic. In terms of a possible cause of death, I think it's safe to assume that the Somerton Man had ingested something undetectable to the technology of the day (the pathologists at the time were unable to ascertain a cause of death but agreed it was probably a poison).
Can't get enough of the case?
Check out episode five of The Somerton Man Mystery, which explores some of the breakthroughs in DNA technology and forensic genealogy in further detail.
By Bridget Judd
So in the end, the strange poem and random letters didn't really mean anything?
So the strange poems, in the end he's just deep? No cryptic messages?
- Nicole
Here's Derek Abbott:
Deep in depression you mean? Yes, possibly. Though that’s only my speculation.
I don’t think the random letters on the back of the book were a cryptic message. My guess is these were probably first names of horses he was betting one…. or something pedestrian along those lines.
By Bridget Judd
Why were there items from America in the Somerton Man's suitcase?
Our next question comes from Kathy:
I've heard the case was covered internationally but I don't know what that means to the average Joe in Bute or Footscray where the fact that he wore top shelf American clothes in post war austerity should have been a big clue to the people who knew him. Was Webb's brother in law Keane an American and if not how did he possess such clothes that could only have been purchased there? – Kathy
Here's Derek Abbott:
Keane was born in 1889 in Ballarat so definitely not American. So where did all the American items come from in the suitcase? The simplest hypothesis is that they were bought second-hand from a GI stationed in Australia.
Another possibility is that either Keane or Webb travelled to the US. Help with checking old travel records is welcome. Our searches have not turned up anything so far.
By Bridget Judd
Does the discovery of the poetry book mean that Webb was previously in the area?
If the book was found prior to the death..this suggests earlier visits by Webb to the area. Is there any evidence of this?
- John
Here's Derek Abbott:
No. The poetry book was found after his death. Though earlier visits to Adelaide might be possible. We simply have no way of finding out at present.
By Bridget Judd
What was the Somerton Man's last known address?
What was his last known address?
- Rolfe Westwood
Here's Derek Abbott:
2/63 Bromby St, South Yarra, Melbourne (1947) is the last one known to me. Though it is work in progress to see if we can find another one.
By Bridget Judd
What are the main learnings from the Somerton Man case?
What are your main takeaways or learnings from working on this case?
Here's Colleen Fitzgerald:
We were successful with a very challenging sample. This paves the way for even more challenging cases to be solved in the future - to do "more and more with less and less".
By Bridget Judd
How was the Somerton Man's cause of death initially determined?
The next question comes from Mark, who asks:
The detective story which has lead to a final positive identification of Carl Webb is fascinating and a brilliant application of science. But what I'd like to know about this story is what was originally done by investigators to determine a cause of death and can today's science finally reveal if this is a cold case of murder or simply a death by natural causes – Mark
Here's Derek Abbott:
The science has come a long way and if the body from 1948 could be teleported here I have no doubt today’s pathologists would have no difficulty finding the cause of death.
The police were only given permission to exhume for identification purposes by the Attorney General. I’m sure the present Attorney General would consider extending permission to perform toxicology analysis if asked.
However, there is a trade-off between the likelihood of actually finding something after all this time versus the realities of modern crimes that are of higher priority. So, whether it will happen, I do not know.
Personally, for a case as old as this is it probably not worth police time but better if it were farmed out to university pathology teams to work on. Seeing more of this type of collaboration would be welcomed by universities around the world.
By Bridget Judd
Will Carl Webb's identity lead us closer to explaining other aspects of this story?
Now that you have a name to work with, are you hopeful that you'll be able to figure out any of the other unanswered questions around Carl (such as the torn Tamam Shud paper in his fob pocket, the connection to Jessie Thomson, etc.) – Cody
Here's Derek Abbott:
We can only hope. That’s all we’ve got. It would be amazing if his name leads to some answers.
Are there any theories we can rule out?
Given the trail is thin what is Professoor Abbot's explanation of the reasons Webb took his life..? if that was what happened – John
Here's Derek Abbott:
We simply don’t know if he took his life or not. But we are unable to rule out any hypothesis at this stage.
His Dad died in 1939, his brother Roy died in 1943, then his nephew John in 1943, his mother in 1946, and then his marriage fell apart in 1947. That’s quite a lot to bear in a short space of time. On top of this we know he liked a flutter on the horses. Just guessing, but if he was down to his last pennies, due to gambling debts, this may have added to depression.
By Bridget Judd
There was a lot of emphasis placed on the Somerton Man's physique. So was he actually a dancer?
There was a lot of emphasis placed on Somerton Man’s physique - his foot shape and calf development - which hypothesised he was a dancer. Does Carl Webb have dance or similar activities in his profile? – Jay
Here's Derek Abbott:
We have not found any dance in Charles Webb’s profile as yet. What we have found is that it appears he might have played tennis. Sometimes well developed looking muscles can simply be lucky genetics.
By Bridget Judd
How is Derek Abbott connected to the case?
Our next question comes from Wendy, who asks:
Why did he have the phone number of Derek Abbots' wife grandmother? – Wendy
Here's Derek Abbott:
No one knows. There are only speculations. I am agnostic about it and don’t have a favourite speculation.
Can't get enough of the case?
Check out episode four of The Somerton Man Mystery. Journalist Fiona Ellis-Jones spoke with Derek Abbott about why he's spent decades trying to identify the man found dead on Somerton Beach.
