Gordon, 54, London
Occupation Full-time carer
Voting record Conservative until the EU referendum, Labour ever since
Amuse bouche Born and raised in Hong Kong. Moved to the UK aged 18
Alan, 67, London
Occupation History teacher
Voting record Always Labour. Claims to be “the most rightwing member of the Labour party”
Amuse bouche A “frustrated university academic” whose PhD is “still unfinished after 40 years”
For starters
Alan I texted my mates beforehand for some advice. Female friends said: “Be kind.” The male advice was more competitive: “Take no prisoners, but in a polite way”; “Don’t start a sentence with, ‘With the greatest of respect … ’”
Gordon Alan was delightful. We went to Ognisko, a Polish restaurant near the V&A museum. For somebody my age, it’s one of those places where it’s difficult to read the menu without using the torch on your phone. Because I was with a stranger, I squinted.
Alan The food was great. My son was jealous – his girlfriend’s half Polish and they’ve been trying to go there for ages.
Gordon The sauerkraut was gorgeous: really crisp, just sharp enough, and had the flavours of the vegetable still. I had smoked eel salad, which was delicious. I’m half Chinese, and eel is a big part of the menu.
The big beef
Gordon We agreed that if “woke” means being pro-LGBTQ+ rights, free school lunches, sexual equality, it hasn’t gone too far. I believe we’re living through a dynamic period where these terms and rights are being defined.
Alan If by “woke” you mean “use of language in such a way as to not offend”, then it hasn’t gone too far. If you mean pulling down statues and that Churchill is suddenly racist, it may have.
Gordon He thinks tearing down UK statues of slave owners is too radical, but that if he was a black person raised in the southern US he would have an issue with driving past statues of his ancestors’ oppressors. I added that some of these statues were raised in the 1950s and 60s in response to the civil rights movement. It was active pushback: those statues were put up to remind people to stay in their place.
Alan I must admit that although I teach American history I hadn’t really understood that – it wasn’t in the immediate aftermath of the civil war that those statues were raised, it was decades later.
Sharing plate
Alan If apologising for the empire simply means words, is that worth anything? If it means some kind of reparations, is that wise? The period of empire lasted 300 years; inevitably some aspects were absolutely shameful. General Dyer massacring Indians is loathsome. What the British did at the Battle of Omdurman in Sudan wasn’t a battle, it was a slaughter. There are episodes and incidents that should be apologised for. However, the empire wasn’t all bad: it did build railways and it did bring the rule of law.
Gordon I’m a product of colonialism and I view the colonisation of Hong Kong, which turned it from a tiny fishing village into what it is today, as a positive. But atrocities committed in the name of British imperialism deserve to be addressed. We shouldn’t live in ignorance.
For afters
Alan I left Labour during the Corbyn years; I felt he was simply too extreme. I dread to think what would have happened with Ukraine if he’d been prime minister. Corbyn’s response to the Salisbury poisoning was to ask Putin whether the Russians had done it.
Gordon We really disagreed over Jeremy Corbyn. I think he has integrity: if you look at his record in terms of his votes, he’s pretty consistent. He appealed to me because he was facts- and truth-based, with a costed-out economic policy signed off by leading economists.
Alan I was genuinely surprised by how scathing he was about Keir Starmer. I know he’s dropping policy commitments by the day, but I think he’s a pretty moderate guy.
Takeaways
Alan It’s perfectly possible to have a civil disagreement in 2023 – that’s the really shocking news.
Gordon Because we’re both decently informed about the subject matter and could draw on personal experiences relating to it, it was an easy debate to navigate. Even when we disagreed, it was in an affable way.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
• Alan and Gordon ate at Ognisko, London SW7.
Want to meet someone from across the divide? Find out how to take part
