They were two of the most horrific crime cases in Greater Manchester's history. A terrifying campaign of rape by one man, and the torture of a 16-year-old girl over a week, which ended in her murder.
In the civilised surroundings of committee room three at Westminster Hall this week they were part of balanced and considered debate about whether the Parole Board in this country is fit for purpose. In a passionate contribution Blackley and Broughton MP, Graham Stringer, who led the discussion, suggested it is not.
His personal experience of dealing with the pain caused by these crimes on families in his constituency has fuelled his belief that mistakes have been made - firstly in allowing three killers back on the streets, and secondly, in the decision to release a man who raped 12 women in their 20s and a 15-year-old girl at knifepoint.
