When Kath Madgwick and Jenny Miller met for the first time at a small country pub on Queensland's Sunshine Coast, there was an unspoken knowing between them.
"As soon as Kath started walking towards me, I could see that here was a broken-hearted mum. I could just see that and we both cried," Ms Miller recalled.
Speaking to the ABC together from Ms Miller's back deck -- a short drive from the Imbil pub where they shared that first hug almost four years ago -- the women detailed how they've found solace in each other following the deaths of their sons, who were both issued illegal Robodebts.
Ms Miller's son Rhys Cauzzo was 28 when he took his own life after being issued a $28,000 automated debt.
Rhys was a florist who loved op-shopping and a good April Fool's joke. He died in January 2017, after being contacted more than two dozen times by Centrelink and debt collectors, despite the department having previously classified him as vulnerable.
Ms Madgwick's son Jarrad Madgwick was an accomplished sportsman and writer. He died by suicide in May 2019, three weeks before his 23rd birthday.
He had been issued with an almost $2,000 Robodebt hours earlier.
Under the Coalition-era Robodebt program, hundreds of thousands of welfare recipients were accused of owing the government money between 2015 and 2019.
The budget-savings measure was designed to raise more than $1 billion but the calculation method, which used income averaging, was later found to be unlawful.
Since that day in late 2019 when the two mums first met, they have become trailblazers pushing for answers over the illegal automated debt program that eventually led to the Robodebt royal commission.
The hearings have wrapped up, but Commissioner Catherine Holmes is due to report back to the government with her findings by June 30.
Together, they've sought justice for their sons against a tidal wave of bureaucracy that is still stonewalling Ms Madgwick from getting the answers she needs to put her mind at rest.
She is continuing to seek documents in relation to the issuing of Jarrad's debt in 2019.
"It's not somewhere I wanted to be when I lost my son -- fighting with Centrelink and trying to get information," Ms Madgwick said.
She said knowing Ms Miller had already fought for information from government departments after Rhys died, had made it easier to keep going.
"So it was nice to know that I wasn't alone in the world in that way [knowing] that there were people out there fighting for this as well," Ms Madgwick said.
She said her motherly instinct kicked in and motivated her to keep going to protect her son even though he was no longer here.
"But also the pursuit of truth ... so that you could sleep at night," she said.
"It still runs over in my mind and it will until I get all those documents."'
For Ms Miller, she found the strength to step into the media spotlight following Rhys' death because she didn't want the same thing to happen to anyone else.
"I know, for me that I now do have all the answers but I've also been ridiculed by people on social media who have said: 'You're just after the money'," she said.
"Knowing our sons like we knew them, [we knew] that they were pushed over the edge by nothing that they had control over.
"It was very difficult for me to get answers, so the more that they lied to me and the more that they tried to stop me, you just don't do that."
Life after losing a son
The cost of seeking justice has weighed heavily on both women.
"For me, it's been quite enormous," Ms Miller explained.
"I also suffer anxiety, panic attacks and depression, so for me to manage that with the grief on top has been extremely difficult."
Ms Miller said she used to compete in the sport of cutting horses and also judged competitions.
"I haven't been able to ride since I've lost Rhys," she said.
"I certainly don't enjoy things like I used to, because why should I enjoy it? My son's not here to enjoy it with me."
Ms Madgwick said she's experienced the same struggles since Jarrad died, giving up swimming -- a pastime they used to share.
"Life is diminished," she said.
"Your happiness is diminished.
"[Recently] I was at a birthday event and I laughed and I thought: 'Oh, I haven't heard that in a long time'. I really, actually, laughed and that's the first time in four years that I've seen a glimpse of myself."
Plans for a suicide prevention program
Both women believe their sons would be proud of what they've done to get answers about their Robodebts.
But as the royal commission draws to a conclusion, Ms Miller and Ms Madgwick have begun turning their minds to something bigger – a program to help young people understand the changes in their mood as they mature.
"What we will be looking at doing is putting something together to promote suicide awareness," Ms Miller said.
"An education stream of some sort that we see is sadly lacking."
Ms Miller said the topic of suicide should not be taboo.
"We need to talk about it as there's not enough conversations but when you look at the statistics, it's shocking," she said.
"All of us have that responsibility to get this out there because sometimes people aren't going to pick up the phone and it all goes back to education."
Taking it day by day
Both women said after the loss of a child, many people they used to spend time with no longer phoned or dropped by because they didn't know what to say.
They said any parent going through the same pain should be easy on themselves.
"I think for me, when I first lost Jarrad, it was hour-by-hour," Ms Madgwick said.
"And I'm still at day-by-day.
"I think when someone loses a child it is that hour-by-hour until you can get to day-by-day, week-by-week and that takes time. It takes a lot of time, and a lot of days, and a lot of triggers."
The two women said having the support of each other helped them sit through nine weeks of damning evidence aired during the royal commission.
"To have that support of someone that is going through the same thing was enormous," Ms Miller said.
"Fighting to get your information and then going through the royal commission and knowing that you were right, that was a big thing."
Hope findings will hold those responsible
After more than 100 witnesses – including two former prime ministers – Commissioner Holmes is set to deliver her final report into the unlawful scheme by the end of June.
The two mums say the findings will be another step in the grieving process for them both.
"I personally believe there is a misfeasance in public office," Ms Miller said.
"I think there needs to be a big clean out of the public service. People getting paid this massive amount of money, but not doing your job – it just doesn't stand."
Ms Madgwick said it was important for her to see recommendations that removed the automated nature of any future debt raising from Centrelink.
"I really hope that it concentrates on the people because we're all unique. We're all different and these online systems, your individual circumstances are not taken into account."
