D Raja, the general secretary of the Communist Party of India, says a communist revolution is not possible in India by only focussing on economic concerns.
In this special two-part episode on What's Your Ism, Sudipto Mondal earlier spoke to the CPIM’s Sitaram Yechury. In this part, Raja reflects on the role of BR Ambedkar and the Buddha in shaping his communist ideology, Modi’s India, and international conflicts.
Although communists have traditionally been at loggerheads with identity movements, Raja says it's time to revise the theoretical positions held by classical Marxists. He also talks about why the CPI and the CPIM continue to be separate political parties despite being ideological twins.
Watch.
D raja
Sudipto Mondal: [00:00:00] The most influential ism in the country today appears to be Hindutva.
It has taken a long time for this ideology to come of age. But what happened to the other ideological movements that began in the early 20th century? The RSS will turn a hundred years old next year, but so will the Communist Party of India.
-: Ambedkarism,
Sudipto Mondal: Marxism, Liberalism, Dravidianism. Feminism, Gandhiism.
What role are these great big isms of the 20th century playing in the 21st century? What relevance do they have today?
-: We have a dream.
Sudipto Mondal: I'm an atheist in the same way as I'm an a leprechaun. Why have there been casteism existing in the country still today? Feminism,
-: by definition, is the belief that men and women should have equal rights.
The nature of the system is to be as mean and rotten [00:01:00] as you can, uh, to try to, you know,
Sudipto Mondal: The national elections are around the corner, and what better time than now to talk about isms. I'm Sudipto Mandal and welcome to this special election series of What's Your Ism.
They are part of the most enduring political alliance in the history of India. The two principal communist parties of India, the CPI and the CPM, have worked together for so long that it has become hard to tell them apart. What is the difference between their political lines and what happened to all that talk of reunification?
Join me in this two part series as I speak to the General Secretaries of the two parties, D. Raja and Sitaram Yachuri, about communism in India. My guest today is the leader of a left party which has diminished drastically since the last century that it was formed, but it continues to be electorally relevant.
Uh, it, it boasts of an office in every district in India. It has a unit. Down to the gram [00:02:00] panchayat level in most parts of the country, the CPI might be down, but it is not out of electoral calculations to speak about the ISM of the original communist party of India. No brackets. We have a man who needs no introduction.
He's an author. He's a columnist, a Marxist thinker. His comrades describe him as a working class hero. Please welcome D Raja, sir. Thank you so much for coming on this show. This is a great office, sir. It is one of the biggest communist offices I've seen.
D Raja: Uh, definitely it is, uh, One of the oldest, uh, offices, uh, for any political party, because we have this office.
Then, uh, we have, uh, the offices of other political parties also around. Uh, the Cong the office of the Congress party is coming up. And, uh, there is office of Aam Aadmi Party. Then, uh, RJD. If you work further, you will find, uh, The office of the Bharatiya Janata Party. Then if you [00:03:00] come this side, you have, uh, Surjit Bhawan, run by CPM.
CAG office is here. So it is a very important location for that matter. And we have office, and I must, uh, express my sincere gratitude to my senior leaders, uh Who took the efforts to build such an office, uh, to function as headquarters of CPI, uh, guiding the work activities of our party across the country from, uh, Kanyakumari to Kashmir, from, uh, Maharashtra to Manipur.
Sudipto Mondal: What is the centerpiece of your office, the library?
D Raja: Library is, uh, in our basement. It is, uh, one of the. Very best libraries, I must say, because many research scholars do come here. Uh, we have, uh, very [00:04:00] precious, uh, documents also. Is it a lending
Sudipto Mondal: library or you just can sit in? No, no,
D Raja: it is party library. If people want to refer to some material, read some material, they can come with permission and they can sit and, uh, read.
And, uh, this has been named after Ajay Kumar Ghosh. That is why it is called Ajay Bhavan.
Sudipto Mondal: Can you tell us about Aja poster? No.
D Raja: He was, uh, the general secretary of the party before the split. Mm-Hmm. Uh, he was the general secretary and he was a great comrade of, uh, ing. Also his, uh, work on buggering and his comrades.
One of the inspiring, uh, works, which we all of us, uh, keep reading, right. And, uh, as I go is, uh, our well, uh, respected and, uh. One of the greatest, uh, communist leaders, uh, in the country. And, uh, this building has been named after him. Ajay Bhavan. [00:05:00] Our library.
She's our, uh, young librarian. Hello. Who is taking care. So
Sudipto Mondal: you have archives also over here? Okay. Yeah.
D Raja: Yeah. We have wonderful collection of, uh, old documents inside
Sudipto Mondal: before we get into the and all of that. How is the India alliance doing, sir? No,
D Raja: it is, uh, doing well. It, uh, is expected to do well. That is one reason why BJP is, uh, getting, uh, every passing day.
Why Mr. Uh, Modi, uh, the B-J-P-R-S has combined. to such a low level to abuse opposition, raising, uh, issues, uh, not connected with any livelihood of the [00:06:00] people. So, it has, it has given, no, after all, the independent political parties, they come together on a, uh, issue which concerns the country and the future.
Now, constitution is under attack, democracy is in peril, secular parliamentary democratic system. is under attack. So, country has to be saved. There are people who believe we have already lost the republic. Now it is time we'll have to fight and reclaim our republic. So how to do that? Unless you fight and defeat BJP.
Sudipto Mondal: In that context, can I ask you, uh, there is this talk about joint fight and all that. I was just going through. So for this interview, I prepared using your, the document from your party congress. Two years ago, the, you know, the declaration, the resolution, one of the things mentioned in the [00:07:00] resolution is that, uh, accommodating Rahul Gandhi and ARD was a big mistake.
what do you, how do you see that it is one of
D Raja: the, uh, the issues which you have picked up? I do not know why it is not a major issue. Mm-Hmm. Of course he went and fought because there, Kerala is a specific political situation. Because it is not like any other state. There, the conflict is or fight is between LDF and UDF.
LDF and UDF. At national level, the communists, uh, the Congress, the other secular democratic forces agree to work together in order to defeat BJP and save the nation. and save the democracy, but in Kerala, the situation is different. In that context, leader of his stature should have fought [00:08:00] directly against BJP.
In any other state, that would have sent a good message. That is how it has been explained. Now it is for Congress party to think over.
Sudipto Mondal: Which brings me to another question, again about the South and a particular state. Both your seats are from Tamil Nadu. I just picked up from my sources that the DMK is very keen that you should contest a third time.
D Raja: Talks are, uh, going on. I understand, uh, maybe tomorrow or day after tomorrow, again, uh, our party and DMK will sit together and discuss. What they discuss, it is for our state leadership. Let us wait and see what will be the outcome. You know what I
Sudipto Mondal: heard, I heard that. No,
D Raja: let you hear. Let me
Sudipto Mondal: share what I heard.
I heard that if the ticket doesn't go to Mr. Raja, the DMK thinks it will be on a weak wicket. And it wants [00:09:00] the CPI. It wants the CPI to make an exception. Let us see.
D Raja: I do not know. Nobody has spoken to me. Even my party leadership has not conveyed anything to me. People like you must be, uh, getting, uh, information.
from your own sources. I cannot ask your source. Let us wait. Can I ask you, can I ask
Sudipto Mondal: you, is the third term ruled out? Is that like absolute? No, no.
D Raja: It is for my party to decide everything. I am the general secretary, but finally we function on a very, uh, principled position. That is a democratic centralism is the basic organizational principle of our party.
Party, it means what, uh, the All India Centre and the State Centre should work in coordination and we must take into account [00:10:00] the national political context and the balance of political forces in every state and we should discuss and decide accordingly. What is good for the party? What is good for the party?
Future of the country and the politic, how to shape the political course of the country in the coming days. Uh, how party can contribute in that effort. That is how we have to take everything into consideration. And accordingly, we should, we have to decide the cons, candidates, everything that our party will be discussing.
Sudipto Mondal: Right. This is your office now, sir? Yeah. This is the floor on which your office is Yeah.
D Raja: This, uh, picture is our, uh, Ana Ana volunteers who took part armed in Ana, armed the rebel revolt against Nija [00:11:00] Kar. And
Sudipto Mondal: this corridor has many interesting photographs.
D Raja: Yes,
Sudipto Mondal: I see you have Ho Chi Min.
D Raja: This is
the ble of our constitution. This is, uh, Singh
and all our former. General secretaries, leaders,
Sudipto Mondal: you've written in one of your pieces that, along with Ambe Singh, is an icon that can bring the left and the, uh, ambe Christ together. Oh, we have Ambe here. Yeah, we
D Raja: have Ambe here.
Sudipto Mondal: Lenin, mark, and
D Raja: yes, this is what you mean.
Sudipto Mondal: Does he occupy special place in the parties, sir, in terms of an ideolog is in terms of an icon.
Or is it just coincidental that we have a bust here?
D Raja: Both, you can say. We have great respect, love [00:12:00] for Ho Chi Minh. Because, uh, South Asia, this, and, uh, he led the people fighting against American imperialism, French and Japanese militarism, all. And, uh, the way he worked with people is, uh, highly inspiring. Uh, that's what, uh, he used to say, uh, live with the people, eat with the people, sleep with the people, lead the people.
So, life of inspiration. And we have all his portraits everywhere.
Sudipto Mondal: I think his portraits dominate the entire office. He had
D Raja: a special relationship also with our general secretary, Nehru. Check this out.
Sudipto Mondal: This is Nehru. [00:13:00] Who is this, sir, in the photo? Your General Secretary, Nehru, and what do you mean? Nehru, our Ajay Ghosh,
D Raja: what do you mean?
It's one of the oldest rare photos we have.
Sudipto Mondal: Great, so after that tour of the office, we are finally in the office that matters, in the office of Mr. Raja, against the backdrop of Lenin. This is a beautiful portrait, uh, but not signed by anybody. So it's an anonymous portrait, but it's beautiful. Do you have any idea, sir, where this portrait came from?
No.
D Raja: No, it was here even before I came. So, uh, it was obtained, uh, by my predecessors. So it is there. This is the room of the general secretary of the party. So, uh, it is there.
Sudipto Mondal: Right. So, sir, now, uh, I'll get into the more formal part of the interview. Um, I just want to tell you that in preparation for this interview, I went through three major documents or [00:14:00] materials, uh, one, of course, your own writing, one, uh, your party Congress resolution from 2022, uh, I think it was held in Vijayawada.
And the third document, I, I find it very interesting. It's a 1948. document, which is, uh, called, uh, the program of democratic revolution. This was your second party conference, uh, in which you, you, you laid out the path for how you will participate in the democracy. So these are the three broad things I've looked at.
But before any of that, sir, I want to actually, uh, know what's happening with the communist party and the movement for starters, because, uh, the CPI in this document and also for many years has been talking about reunification. And I wish Mr. Yechury was here. I tried in fact, to get both of you in the same interview.
Uh, from the outside, because of so many alliances that you've already been part of, from the public view, uh, point of view, the distinction between CPI and CPM has somewhat [00:15:00] blurred. So if you can tell us about the distinction and also please tell us what's happening with the, uh, Calls for a reunification of the CPI and the CPM.
D Raja: The split, uh, was, uh, major, uh, development and it, uh, affected, uh, the growth of, uh, communist movement and influence of the communist movement in the country. And nobody, for that matter, I belong to the Communist Party of India. And, uh, I always stood for unity and my party stands for unity. But somehow this split took place.
There were some ideological, political reasons. In today's context, those ideological, political reasons Now it is a new situation. [00:16:00] When the split took place, uh, it was a different time. Uh, the country, in the post independent India, there was one party rule. That is, uh, Congress Party. Uh, after independence, it is Congress Party.
And the first time in 1957, Communist Party broke that one party rule and won the elections in Kerala. 1967, that one party rule was broken in 7 8 states. So, till that time, the Communist Party was a major force in shaping the political course of the country. After the split, uh, it has affected the communist party's electoral strength.
I mean, [00:17:00] electoral strength.
Sudipto Mondal: You still have an office and a unit in every district in India. In
D Raja: the meantime, the regional parties also emerged. So, India, a country with tremendous diversities. It is multilingual, multicultural, So, regional parties also emerged and, uh, uh, communist party had to respond to the aspirations, uh, of the people of, uh, every part of the country.
And the Communist Party, uh, has its own, uh, ideology, its own perspective for, uh, building a new India, a new India. We fought against British rule. We fought against all colonial powers. We fought against British colonialism. We fought against French colonialism. We [00:18:00] fought against Portuguese colonialism. Our party made, uh, supreme sacrifices in the fight against, uh, colonial rule.
And, uh, we finally won the independence. And, uh, yeah, independence was not given to us on a platter by anybody. We fought and won the independence and, uh. In this building, you could have seen, uh, how many portraits of, uh, Bhagat Singh. And, uh, they are all martyrs, uh, who fought against, uh, the colonial rule in such a way.
So now, after independence, what should be the new India? That was the issue. As far as, uh, our party is concerned, we always, uh, think of, uh, a costless Classless. India, where no gender bias, men, [00:19:00] women are all equal. And, uh, that is our perspective for, uh, uh, New India. Costless, classless. India.
Sudipto Mondal: I'd like to interrupt you for a second here, sir.
If I had asked a person from the CPM, let's say if I was having the same interview with Mr. Yechury, I would imagine that he would say the same things, which is what led to the question in the first place, saying, what are the contradictions between the CPI and the CPM? That's what I am coming
D Raja: to that point.
When one party rule was there, what should be our attitude to the government, state, state power? And, uh, our party had its understanding, uh, Indian state. is, uh, state of, uh, national bourgeoisie. Indian state is a state of national bourgeoisie in which the landlords [00:20:00] have their own influence. That's all. But, uh, uh, the comrades who broke with our party And, uh, went away.
They thought, uh, Indian state is, uh, a state of, uh, bourgeoisie and landlords. That was the idea. Then, what should be the future course? And, uh, our party, at that point of time, proposed, uh, India should move towards national democratic revolution. Uh, because we should unite all non monopoly bourgeoisie, non monopoly, non monopoly bourgeoisie.
Uh, then, uh, Uh, small, medium farmers. It's a non monopoly bourgeoisie. No, I am finishing. So, [00:21:00] that's what we proposed. On their side, they talked about people's democratic revolution. The working class, they should, uh, Uh, that is what they proposed. People's democratic revolution. Now, where do we stand? And, uh, at that point of time, on international level also, there were debates in, uh, world communist movement.
Whether, uh, Soviet or the Chinese line or Chinese line and, uh, the, the, the, that impact was also there, uh, here on India. So all these factors. But finally party split and CPI, CPM, then from CPM, ML, Naxalite movement, [00:22:00] so many other groups emerged. But what is today? What we can do today? How to, because when you talked about A party diminished this that electorally, we might have become smaller or declined, but the ideological influence, the political influence of the communist movement has not diminished.
That's what I'm saying. That does not diminish. In fact, that is having greater impact and influence. Among all sections, particularly among the young people of India, and they have seen, uh, many political parties. And in a multi party democracy, they keep seeing many parties. But what is the alternative?
When I [00:23:00] say alternative, that alternative for a revolutionary change, or it should pave the way for a revolutionary change. So the communist movement always stands for an alternative, stands for a revolutionary change. Building a new India. When I say new India, why there should be poverty? Why there should be caste hierarchy?
Why there should be class divisions? So, how to overcome, how to fight, because we should apply, uh, whether Leninism or Marxism to Indian conditions, how we understand Indian conditions. What is Indian society? Indian society is a caste society, and, uh, this Ambedkar said. You [00:24:00] can talk of any political reform or.
economic reform. But wherever you go, you will have to confront the monster, which is called caste. Because that monster crosses you, unless you annihilate that monster. That is where he talked about annihilation of caste. And even as communists, we have to address this question in Indian society. The same way, women, why patriarchy?
should continue and how patriarchy can be perpetuated. Then the other question is class. Everybody understands the productive forces are improving and the production relations are changing. Now, uh, once we talked about, uh, proletarians have nothing to lose except chains. Now, artificial intelligence has [00:25:00] come, artificial, so there is, uh, great change in the production, uh, productive process itself.
So, the class approach, what should be the class approach? Uh, it is only, uh, uh, trade union, economism. Are fighting for only economic demands or more than that? This question was discussed by Marx and Engels, and they themselves clarified. Class struggle doesn't mean only struggle for economic demands.
Class struggle means struggle for political power also. Class struggle means Philosophical struggle. Philosophical struggle. How to change the mindset of our people. We keep talking about compassion, love, harmony among the people for which you will have to change your mindset. How to do it? It is an [00:26:00] ideological struggle.
It is a philosophical struggle. This is what Marx, Engels have explained and Lenin tried to implement in Russia. We are now in India. It's our country. Here we have, uh, all this, uh, cost, uh, problems, uh, by birth, people are divided, upper cost, lower cost, all such things. How to fight the caste system.
Sudipto Mondal: This is what we should do.
We will come to the Indian question. We will come to Ambedkar. But I just noticed that in all of this, you didn't tell me what is going to happen with the reunification. What is coming in the way, sir? Is there anything? No, no.
D Raja: I am telling you. Yeah, it is Communist Party of India which proposed the reunification of communist movement on principled basis.
You can ask anybody. Yes, it is there in your document. No, you can ask anybody when Comrade [00:27:00] C. H. Chandra Rajeshwar Rao, C. Rajeshwar Rao, when Comrade C. Rajeshwar
-: Rao
D Raja: was the General Secretary of the party, we had a party congress in Kolkata where the CPI formally proposed. It is time we should strive for reunification of the communist movement on principled basis.
And, uh, CPI did not stop with that. CPI consistently took efforts to unify. And, uh, we tried to unify the mass organization, class organizations. There was an effort to unify the The effort
Sudipto Mondal: is lacking from Listen, listen.
D Raja: There was an effort to unify the Kisan organizations. Anyway,
Sudipto Mondal: you say the same name. A I K S, A I K S.
Both
D Raja: names, All India Kisan Sabha, All India Kisan Sabha. I think the
Sudipto Mondal: [00:28:00] address is changed or something. Address is
D Raja: changed and we agreed to merge and a resolution was passed in our Kisan Sabha. It could not, uh, move forward in the same way when Comrade A. B. Baradhan was General Secretary of our party, General Secretary of AITUC, Comrade Balanandan was, uh, leader of CITU, they both agreed to unify the Electricity, Electricity Workers Federation.
They formed a committee also to work out the modalities of, uh, uh, unification merger. But that could not move forward. Then when Comrade Indrajit Gupta was General Secretary, Comrade Surjit was General Secretary, in their names, it was agreed to send a common circular to all state units of India. CPI, CPM, [00:29:00] asking them to constitute state level coordination committee.
We sent Common Circular, signed by Comrade Indrajit Gupta, Comrade
Sudipto Mondal: Surjit. This was in the year, uh?
D Raja: When they were General Secretaries. But, uh, some states, they tried to, uh, have, uh, coordination at state level, all such things. But nothing substantial could take place. Now, uh, I am the General Secretary of my party.
Comrade Echuri is General Secretary of CPM. Even at our time, we keep discussing how to unite the left, not only communist movement, how to unite the entire left.
Sudipto Mondal: You think there's a scope for that also to happen? There
D Raja: is. The situation demands our left should come together Which means the ML
Sudipto Mondal: parties also.
D Raja: Everybody will have to come together. There should be greater [00:30:00] left unity, greater communist unity. Why I am saying, today the political power has been captured by right wing fascist forces. Right wing fascist forces. What is RSS? It was formed in the year 1925. And our party was formed in the year 1925. Now, RSS captured power.
BJP is nothing but political arm of RSS. And RSS has an ideology. That ideology is divisive, sectarian, communal, fascist. When such change has taken place in the country, how to save the nation and its future, if left doesn't come together, communist movement doesn't work as a collective, uh, unit, this is what the situation is, uh, asking, the history is [00:31:00] asking these questions, how long this can continue.
Split took place. There were, there might have been some, uh, reasons, but those reasons or those, uh, causes are not, uh, valid today, valid today. We should understand. It is a new situation. And in the new situation, communists also will have to apply their, uh, mind, how to, uh, address the challenges posed by the new situation.
This is what our party has been saying. We openly, I say, now we are here. You are asking about other political parties, Sujit Bhavan is. There, I told openly, you walk from Sujit Bhavan two minutes, you can reach Ajay Bhavan. From there you go to CITU two minutes. From there you go to EITC two minutes. And all
Sudipto Mondal: of this can become properties of one party if you merge.
No, geographically.
D Raja: [00:32:00] Don't use that word properties. What I'm saying, geographically, we are so close. But why not ideologically? Why not politically? When we are confronting the right wing fascist forces. The communists must, uh, uh, understand the need of the situation, the unity of left and, uh, communist movement.
Now, Parliament is becoming redundant. If Parliament becomes redundant, democracy dies. This is what happened in, uh, Germany, the ACK was attacked, then attack on communist, then democracy. Everything gone fascism. In the same way in India, parliament is made redundant. Uh, and uh, D democracy will survive. So we love to save democracy.
We'll have to save the [00:33:00] constitution. Then only we can shape the politics, political course of the country. Um,
Sudipto Mondal: okay. I still didn't get an answer for that question, but I'll move to the back. No, what is that? My question really was, sir, what is stopping the unity? No, what is
D Raja: this stopping? We are proposing, you are asking me.
No, but CPM is not agreeing. Oh, you go and ask them. Okay. This is not the way to No, no, no. I understand. No, no, no. I'm not accusing you. Reunification. That's true. This was proposed by CPI, Unification of the Communist Movement, on principle basis. And we continue that. And if that doesn't happen, you'll have to ask the other party.
Instead of that, you are trying to accuse No, no, I'm
Sudipto Mondal: not trying to accuse you of anything, sir. Not at all. I will, in fact, uh, I have an Riachuri also, I'll ask him, but sir, if you'll allow [00:34:00] me now to move a little away from the Indian politics, uh, your party is always known as one which has an internationalist vision.
The communists always have an internationalist vision. And in that, I was going through your, uh, party document. I looked up the section on Russia, sir. Uh, one, of course, in the, uh, party conference, you invited, uh, the CPI ML, right? And they had a pretty interesting take on this matter. They, they, in fact, uh, I just have, uh, their statement somewhere here.
No, I know, I know. They say that, uh, Russia should unilaterally withdraw, uh, but in your statement you talk about NATO and your focus is on the US. Um, I just want to understand, sir, uh, do you see the Russian aggression as a problem or, or is it something that is not the focus of the party, sir?
D Raja: One should try to understand what is Russia today, what is happening.
Between Russia and Ukraine, [00:35:00] who should be held responsible for this ongoing war or crisis? What is NATO? What is the history of NATO? Why NATO is spreading? North Atlantic, North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Instead of confining to North Atlantic, Why it is, uh, uh, spreading, expanding everywhere? What is the business NATO has got?
So this is where we should understand the present imperialist character. Present imperialist character. What imperialism was at the time of Lenin? What imperialism at our time is another thing. And why NATO is trying to expand? And for that, NATO is creating military conflicts. NATO is [00:36:00] creating military conflicts.
NATO is trying to, uh, take membership of every country. What is the need for NATO? There is United Nations. If at all somebody talks about, uh, some international forum, there is United Nations. Why NATO should be there? UN security forces are there. Peacekeeping forces are there. There is, uh, uh, the International Court of Justice, even on Palestine Israel, International Court of Justice has given a verdict, uh, against Israel.
So, what is this NATO? First of all, people should question. What is this NATO? Why NATO is so aggressive? Why NATO is trying to spread everywhere and NATO will not stop only Central Asia, NATO can move to South Asia also and your India will come under pressure from NATO, [00:37:00] then what happens?
Sudipto Mondal: Right. But the question is also what about Russia?
The reason I ask this sir, the reason I ask this, okay, this is from my previous interview, I had interviewed Kavitha Krishnan,
D Raja: she said, I'm not getting into what others are saying, It is that, no, no, I am not getting into, uh, what others say. First of all, you should understand. Uh, yeah, yeah, I have my position.
Uh, yeah, I have my position. And, uh, Russia must have some concerns. For Russian nationality, Russian speaking people and Ukraine was part of Soviet Union. So that is the thing. So Ukraine being part of Soviet Union. Why this split took place? Why this? No, it is not time to accuse one country or other. What our party has said, stop the war.
Dialogue is the only way. Talk to each other. This is what my party has said. What others are saying, I don't, uh, [00:38:00] it is their understanding. Would you consider what Russia is saying? No, what Russia is saying, even today, we are saying, stop the war. Engage in dialogue. Try to resolve problems, whatever may be.
And don't allow NATO to get in. Say no to NATO. Russia and Ukraine can, uh, resolve their problems. Talking to each other. They were part of one union, Soviet Union. Now, there can be some problems. They can, uh, resolve those problems through dialogue. This is what, now, if you take, uh, accusing one nation and, uh, uh, siding with other nation, you will play in the hands of, uh, NATO.
This is what I'm saying. Right. Now, war should be brought to an end. And there should be dialogue. This is our party's position.
Sudipto Mondal: Yes. And I just wanted to draw your attention. You said you don't want to respond to what Kavita said, which is fair, sir. [00:39:00] She's not even part of the CPIML anymore. But I just wanted to get your sense of what Russia itself is saying.
So I was going through, uh, this writings of this person called Alexander Dugin, who was supposed to be Putin's Rasputin. He's supposed to be Putin's mind. Now, in an article in seminar, I think last year he wrote this article. He says, uh, he invokes the idea of Akhand Bharat, saying that, uh, a larger Russian landmass and a larger Indian landmass is part of the national imagination, is part of the Civilization of these countries.
I can quote him saying that by, he is saying, he talks about multipolarity, sir. He says by joining the club of multipolarity, India could achieve new goals and return, you know, return to its history and its traditions. So, you know, trying to say that there is a common ground between how Akhand Bharat operates and how Russia operates,
D Raja: sir.
Let us not get into all this. Uh, very [00:40:00] fictitious, uh, No,
Sudipto Mondal: it's not fictitious, sir. This is an advisor of
D Raja: Putin's. Oh, he may be advisor of Putin. He's not my advisor. I don't decide my policies taking his advice. Russia decides its policies. Whatever may be, Russia can decide. I need not decide, uh, taking his advice.
Who is he to, uh, give such an advice to me? That is not the point. The point is, Multipolarity has become an issue when, when, after 1990s, in fact, the neoliberal policies were imposed in the name of Washington Consensus. The neoliberal policies were imposed on the whole world and that was the time. There was an attempt by U.
S. to emerge as unipolar world and that was the time, uh, we should understand because, uh, collapse of Soviet Union and, uh, some [00:41:00] ideologues started speaking end of ideology, end of history, everything has come to end and only U. S. impelled power will emerge as unipolar world. That was the time we as communists, we all fought for multipolarity and the world cannot become unipolar one and the world must remain multipolar and non aligned movement.
What is the role of non aligned movement? What is the role of a country like India? We discussed all these questions, all these questions. Akhanda Bharat, it is, uh, here the right wing forces who keep talking about Akhand Bharat. Ask them to define Akhand Bharat. What is Akhand Bharat? Anyone in the, only they can refer to Pakistan.
What do they mean by Akhand Bharat? Ask them to explain. [00:42:00] And, uh. But if you ask them. Now, now, now, now the thing is. This is Akhant Bharat here, this is Akhant Russia, Akhant Russia. So all right wing forces are coming together. That is the, uh, the idea they tried to promote, project. When Lenin was there, it was Soviet Union, Soviet Union, and Lenin said self determination to all nationalities.
The peace accord was the first accord signed by, uh, that is a decree on peace. Yeah. That was the first decree signed by Lenin. And which allowed nationalities to take self determination position. Despite all those things, they all came together, lived together, worked together, they built Soviet Union.
Later on, Soviet Union collapsed [00:43:00] for, there were certain reasons, there were certain reasons. And those reasons were analyzed, even now being analyzed. Every communist party tried to understand what happened in Soviet Union at the time of, uh, Gorbachev. What is this perestroika? Yeah, all those, uh, things were discussed in 1992.
Our party congress discussed. What is, uh, uh, happening, what happened in, uh, Soviet Union, how it happened, all these things, every party tried to understand. Now the question is, yeah, because, yeah, uh, uh, comparing all these things. There, we must be clear, what is NATO, what business NATO has got in Central Asia?
It is North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Why it has to come to [00:44:00] Indian Ocean region? Can we allow NATO to come to Indian Ocean region? Now, they are trying to build India, Australia, Japan, all this, can we agree to that? Yeah, in fact, when I was youth activist, we organized an international conference in Chennai in 1976.
To declare Indian Ocean as zone of peace. Now why military block should emerge in Indian Ocean region? So we'll have to look at the overall developments at the world level, global level. Because here imperialist powers, yeah, because they are in a crisis. Powers are in crisis and they think they want to dominate the whole world.
Even environment who should be held responsible for climatic change, global warming. And [00:45:00] there was a time they tried to India and China, they are the most populous countries, they are responsible for all these things. But in reality, it's something else, and it is imperialist powers which were responsible for climatic change.
Now the humanity is facing the impact of climatic change. So we'll have to understand the developments. At global level, the political developments, economic developments, social developments, in an objective way, in an objective way, and not to, not falling into some kind of subjectivism. This is my understanding, whether others agree or not.
That is their problem, but my understanding this, and, same way, [00:46:00] I look at my own country, my own society, why people, they should live in such a pathetic, uh, social environment, why there should be caste, why there should be patriarchy, why there should be class division, why all citizens cannot have means of livelihood, why As they want.
This is what Dr. Ker said. Now there is an attempt to redefine, uh, Indian Nation and the Indian State. The, you have seen the preamble of the Constitution. Our constitution makes it clear. Indian Nation should. As a secular democratic republic, Indian state should be a secular state, not a theocratic state.
Indian state should remain as a secular state and Indian state [00:47:00] should be a welfare state. Ensuring all means of livelihood to all its citizens, men and women, this is what constitution says. Then Indian state should remain as a federal state. That is what Dr. Ambedkar said, India, that is Bharat, union of states.
In fact, originally Ambedkar called United States of India. Yes, I remember. When he drafted the constitution, he said union of states. Union of States means what? So, every state has its own elected government. And there should be coordination, cooperation, on the basis of federal principles. Mr. Modi talks about cooperative federalism.
There is neither cooperation nor federalism. But he calls co operative federalism, grabbing all powers of state governments and centralizing all powers of the, [00:48:00] uh, country and how can we, uh, agree, uh, such development to continue? That is where we keep talking left must come together, communists There is a need for left unity, communist unity.
We'll have to strengthen the left unity, communist unity. Once left communist movement emerges, it can ideologically influence other centrist forces. And even in our document we have said, centrist forces are, must come together. Yeah, may not take left of center position, but they should not take right of center position.
Centrist forces should not take right of center position. They may not take left of center position. This is what we have pointed out. And, [00:49:00] uh, we'll have to work together on an agreed, uh, platform. What is that? We'll have to strive for education, healthcare, employment, housing, food for all our citizens. And they must be the rights of our citizens, how to bring people together, how to unite all forces which want a change, a progressive change, not this regressive change, taking the country backward to a monopoly, monolithic, uh, medieval, uh, socio political order.
This is what our party has been clearly spelling out. Now, we are doing public debate also. And we interact with other parties also. Thanks.
Sudipto Mondal: I mean, that's like a, a good, uh, you know, sense of your entire perspective on the Indian and the,
D Raja: uh,
Sudipto Mondal: the neighborhood, the Indian [00:50:00] neighborhood and all of that. But sir, uh, uh, you brought up Ambedkar many times in the course of this, uh, description and, uh, I was researching and I found that, uh, it is a recurring theme in your writings I think starting from 2015, which was his 125th year, you wrote this big op ed in the Indian Express.
It was called Ambedkar for our time in 2015. And I must ask you this because, uh, in the outside world, there's always a rivalry. That is projected between Ambedkarites and the left. And you over here in your article, you say, uh, he opened a debate between caste and class in Indian context, which is significant even today.
His vision of India's freedom is most revolutionary. Because it calls for annihilation of caste, which is more fundamental than economic socialism, sir. Does it mean that the idea of caste trumps the idea of class? I mean, because that's, when I see in campuses and all that, when young students debate, one left [00:51:00] group will be saying class and one right group will be saying caste.
But what do you mean when you say annihilation of caste is more fundamental than economic socialism, sir?
D Raja: That's not the One should try to understand the dialectics between cost and class. In Indian society, there was a debate at the time of Ambedkar, whether caste should be treated as part of superstructure or as part of the base.
Ambedkar said, it is part of base, because by birth, it is part of the base. People are divided,
Sudipto Mondal: branded. But the communists didn't say that. So now is there a change in that? No, we have to re
D Raja: read Indian society. What is Indian society? What is our understanding of Indian society? Right. Sidelining. Or bypassing cost.
Can you build a popular social [00:52:00] movement in India? That is what I said, cost. Yeah, Indians, wherever they go, they carry cost. They go to UK, they carry cost there. They go to USA, They carry costs there. We all come to know how the United States passed a bill on the question of atrocities on Dalits. So now the point is
Sudipto Mondal: Cost discrimination bill in Seattle and Yeah,
D Raja: you mentioned university students are arguing.
What is the problem? In the institutions of higher learning. I am telling you, Ambedkar said knowledge, education is power. When I was a school boy, my village people used to observe Ambedkar's birth anniversary. They will put Dr. Bimrao Ramji Ambedkar, then two lines, what are the degrees. PhDs Amain from [00:53:00] which university it used to strike me.
How come this man got so many degrees, so many PhDs. Then I came to understand education is power. I am the first graduate in my village. I'm the first person who can articulate in English. So education is power. I understand. Now in the institutions of higher learning, the children coming from marginalized, so called marginalized sections, discriminated sections, They come up and, uh, they conquer the education and, uh, they challenge anybody and this is not accepted now.
That is why there is conscious discrimination against Dalit, Adivasi children, students in higher institutions of higher education. Some [00:54:00] people commit suicide, some people revolt. But why it is happening? I am asking all intellectuals must apply their mind. Why in our institutions such discrimination should continue?
Starting from JNU, Chennai IIT, why such discrimination should continue? The
Sudipto Mondal: Hyderabad University Rohit
D Raja: Vemula I have spoken Parliament on several times. I spoke in Parliament. After that, uh, this, uh, uh, Keralanji, when Keralanji tragedy happened, my party asked me, I wrote Dalit question, the way forward.
Right. Then after reading that, comrade, uh, Govind Pansare, the martyr, he said, Raja, you must develop it as a book. It is wonderful. Then only I sat with one of my, uh, uh, uh, friend, [00:55:00] comrades. Who was a professor in Madurai University. We both co authored that book, Mars Ambedkar, continuing the dialogue. So in the, uh, Madurai University, we both sat together and, uh, worked out this book, Mars Ambedkar, the continuing dialogue.
Which year was this
Sudipto Mondal: book, sir? Which year was this
D Raja: book? This was a few years back. You can say a check. What I'm the reason I'm asking is what I am trying to say in today's context, the Marxists, Ambedkarites, Periyaris, and all social reformists. Those who follow, they all come together, come together and work together for a revolutionary change of our society.
Yeah, I don't know you are from Kerala or [00:56:00] not.
Sudipto Mondal: From Bangalore only, sir. Okay. Yes, sir.
D Raja: Kerala, Kerala is, uh, Number one, uh, state, as far as literacy is concerned, how it happened? You must have heard I. N. Kali? Yes, yes. And, uh, he was a great Dalit revolutionary. He fought for education of Dalit children. He demanded gates of schools.
Must be opened for Dalit children. Do you know that? And he did not ask for, uh, the gates of temples to be opened. He asked for gates of schools to be opened for Dalit children. They must have education. That is why today Kerala is number one state. In the same way, in Tamil Nadu, I can say, The Ayodhya Das Pandit, Periyar, they all fought for social reforms, social justice.
Today, Tamil Nadu is one of the leading states as far as social [00:57:00] awareness, the consciousness for justice and everything. It happened. So, what I am trying to say, in today's context, Communists, Ambedkarites, they all fought for social justice. And all those who follow such, uh, social reformers must come together and fight for change.
And that change, not only in material life, that change in mindset also. Intellectually. Mindset also. Yeah, yeah. To end, I can, uh, quote my daughter, uh, how I learned from her. Actually, she was a kid, a school going kid. There was a Muslim family in the VP house. They used to do this namaz, uh, evenings. She used to follow.
Then some friends came, uh, somebody, uh, journalist. They were, uh, [00:58:00] there at home. Then she, on her own, asked, Do you know how Muslims, uh, do namaz? They said no. Then she demonstrated. Then, uh, they started provoking her. Uh, what is happening in your house? What about your mother? My mother, she may be a Christian because she has taken, what is that, Appa?
Baptism. Yes, she has taken baptism. She must be a Christian. What about your father? My father? I don't know what he is. Maybe a Hindu. Then they asked, what about you? Me? I'm a normal human being. You see, how can, can we ask? People should feel they are normal human being. They should share the sufferings of fellow human being.
They should be compassionate to fellow human being. [00:59:00] This is what Buddha said, have compassion to fellow human being.
Sudipto Mondal: Speaking of Buddha actually, again, you are writing, you know, you analyze Ambedkar over here and you say, In our country, the philosophy and practice centered around Marxism was best understood and reflected by B.
R. Ambedkar. When he juxtaposed it with Buddhism and reconciled both to emancipate those who suffered from rigid social structures such as caste and class. Gender. And, uh, this interest in Buddhism, this interest in Ambedkar, sir, do you think it is a little new? Is it, is it new learning for the party? The reason I asked this, can I just finish this question?
The reason I asked this, sir, I just pulled out. I was telling you, I went into the 1948 resolution, sir. There, I think there was a more sharp line of division between Ambedkar or Ambedkar and his followers and the communist party. You say, uh, in that 95, 1948 document, it says the Congress [01:00:00] led mainly by bourgeois leaders belonging to upper castes has consistently refused to champion the cause of the untouchable masses.
This led to reformist and separatist leaders like Dr. Ambedkar to keep the untouchable masses away from the general democratic movement to foster the illusion that their lot can be improved by siding with imperialists. The utter bankruptcy of this policy is proved by the fact that while the top leaders of the untouchables Like Dr.
Ambedkar and Dr. Mandel and Mr. Mandel, Jogindranath Mandel, who we say, have become ministers and have thus lined up with the ruling sections of India and Pakistan. The trusting untouchable masses continue to suffer social degradation and economic exclusion as before. So you can make out that in 1948 there's a different,
D Raja: 1948 it was a different situation.
Even
Sudipto Mondal: today there is this doubt that persists.
D Raja: 1948 it was a different situation. My party was not allowed to function legally. Yes. This document actually brought you to the
Sudipto Mondal: legal [01:01:00] framework. That's
D Raja: what I'm saying. Party was not allowed to function. Legally, there were many contradictions. Political life.
That was the time I am those contradictions led to misunderstandings, miscommunications also. So what has been said, yeah, that they are not saying, no, no, no, no. What has been said doesn't stand. Uh, uh, today the party has moved forward. And, uh, made, uh, many, uh, changes, uh, uh, in its understanding. And, uh, uh, ambe, the, he wrote Butan, uh, yeah.
Karl Karl Mark. Yes. Butan Karl. And he said what? Budha Carl
called the exploitation. Yeah. It's why. Ambedkar should [01:02:00] compare Buddha and Karl Marx because both were, belonged to different time and different geographical place and why Ambedkar compared both Buddha and, this is what one should understand. Then, uh, in, uh, one intellectuals meeting, I asked. If, uh, Ambe is alive today?
Uh, yeah. Where Ambe, uh, will go. I asked Will Ambe support all this, uh, new liberal economic policies? Then, uh, they said, no, sir, he cannot, uh, support then where Ambe will go. Uh, I asked, uh, whether Ambe will, uh, support, uh, this Hindu Russia. Uh, no. No, sir. Uh, Ambe will never support Hindu Russia. Then I myself told [01:03:00] them I'm bit concerned if in Hindu Russia becomes reality that will be calamity and I bonus the du accidentally.
I will never die as Hindu. These are Ambedkar said. So then what Ambedkar will do? There was silence. Then I broke the silence. I said, if Ambedkar is alive, Ambedkar will hold my hand. I will hold Ambedkar's hand. We both will walk together. We both will fight together for the liberation of the people from all forms of exploitation.
This is how I ended my life. Uh, scholars, uh, workshop in Madurai. Right. So, now, Ambedkar is, uh, re read. Uh, uh, to an extent, I must say, uh, people discuss Ambedkar's constitutional, uh, uh, the things and other things. But the political vision And nobody discusses Thoroughly [01:04:00] the economic thoughts of Ambedkar. I used to tell people the economic thoughts of Ambedkar must be studied properly.
It was Ambe who said, means of production should not be in the answer of some individuals. Even Ambe went to the extent of saying, land should be nationalized now. What is happening to our farming community? So the ambe uh, economic thoughts are very relevant today. Even the dam irrigation abeka did not want to be law minister.
Ambedkar wanted to be planning minister. You know that? So, Ambedkar had a vision. Uh, the, Ambedkar's vision, I understand, it leads us to socialism. Right. When Constituent Assembly, there was debate. The, Mr. Shah asked him, Why you are not using the word socialism? Ambedkar [01:05:00] said, What all I have said in the directive principles of state policy.
Sudipto Mondal: They are nothing but socialism. And no further explanation is required in the preamble. Ah, that's what,
D Raja: uh,
Sudipto Mondal: Ambedkar said. Sir, actually, now, since you, I mean, you painted this almost romantic picture of, I suddenly imagined D. Raja walking with Ambedkar. You said we would walk hand in hand today. But I went into your party document, which is the only source I can still get, you know.
So this is the, uh, resolution of your party in the 24th party Congress. And, uh, there are two sections, sir. One is the economic overview and the alternative economic plan. In both these sections, there was no mention of Dalits or Adivasis or women. Given that, uh, when it comes to the economic exclusion of these communities, they face it more acutely, perhaps because of their identity, they face it more acutely, uh, than some other communities.
The only section where I saw Dalits and Adivasis mentioned, [01:06:00] uh, was, there's a separate section, I think I'll just go to that page if you'll allow me, it is, uh, RSS assault on the idea of India, page 101.
D Raja: No, no. I know it is my document. It's
Sudipto Mondal: your document,
D Raja: sir. Yeah, I know.
Sudipto Mondal: The section is only relating to Sorry, sir, if you allow me to finish this question.
The entire section, increasing attacks on Dalits and the tribal question is talking about the attacks on those communities, the attempt to turn them into Hindus. to turn them into militant Hindutva activists, the appropriation of their culture. In the question of the tribals, there is, of course, some reference to FRA, the Forest Rights Act, but in the question of Dalits, there is no economic program, there is no social program that the party mentions.
You
D Raja: should read our entire document. This is political resolution. There we have identified the Dalit question, tribal question, women. We have talked about [01:07:00] social justice. Economic there. We have talked about how public sector should be protected. Our reservation should be protected. In fact, Parliament, I spoke.
Uh, when, uh, private session is done like, like this, that should be re reservation in, uh, uh, private sector,
Sudipto Mondal: right?
D Raja: The, my speech yes. Is viral, uh, in parliament. Yeah.
Sudipto Mondal: You introduced a Yes, I introduced
D Raja: a private member resolution and quoting care. No, uh, that should be reservation in private sector, even when this economically weaker section.
Uh, bill was brought, quota bill. I raised that issue, uh, uh, where is the, uh, bring a bill to provide a reservation in private sector. Why you are not? Then, there we have said, in our document we have said, [01:08:00] Education, health care, employment, housing, food, all must be the rights of our citizens. That means what?
To whom we are asking health, education, it's all for Dalits and Adivasis, they are not given the access to education, health care. So, our resolution comprehensively, it answers to all questions.
Sudipto Mondal: Right. Uh, sir, actually there is this part over here where the party accepts that electorally it might be weak and this initially, the thing that, electorally it might have suffered, but the point that you made initially that the grassroots movement, the, you know, is pretty strong and all that, but in terms of rebuilding and reviving the party and all of that, uh, there are certain suggestions which are given, sir.
In which I found it little interesting that, uh, to overcome the weaknesses in the organization, that is the section. Uh, you [01:09:00] propose that, uh, young people and women should be promoted in leadership. Definitely. You propose a 15 percent reservation for women in positions of power in the party. It
D Raja: is not just reservation.
It is to give an indication, at least. It can be 50 percent also. No,
Sudipto Mondal: no, that is not my question. See, this is what you say. The party has to promote the young and women in party leadership to overcome the problems of
D Raja: No,
Sudipto Mondal: no. You see,
D Raja: there is gender gap, there is generation gap. How to overcome the gender gap, generation gap?
But there is also caste gap, no sir? In leadership there is also caste gap. No, no. I am coming. It is also there. It is also there. Uh, the idea is, We'll have to make conscious effort to [01:10:00] recruit and promote women in our party structure. Leadership. Same way, uh, including leadership. Same way, young people should be brought.
And the same way, we have asked, We should bring more Dalit Adivasi cadets.
Sudipto Mondal: But that is not in the No, no,
D Raja: it is there. It is a part of our understanding. But it is not in the resolution. No, we need not write. In the resolution. Then you will ask me, oh, your party has no Dalit people. Yeah, yeah. But understanding when we recruit our party membership, we have a column.
What is the percentage of socially discriminated sections? Yes. Dali ais, we take note, we study the composition of our party membership. We reach out to the Dali, ais women minorities, and recruit them to the party. [01:11:00] That is a conscious effort. We continue to do that.
Sudipto Mondal: Sir, my final question, we are running out of, uh, time, uh, in this India Alliance.
I started off talking about the alliance, but my specific question here is, uh, when I was going through your older documents and the. Uh, resolution. It seems like, uh, not much has changed since 1948 in terms of how you view, for example, the Congress Party. Uh, back then also you described it as a bourgeois upper caste party, which vacillates between, uh, right wing and left wing.
No, no, no. Now, now you see Now also you see the same thing. No,
D Raja: now you see, it was Congress Party which brought this neoliberal economic policies. Okay. When Man Singh was, uh, prime Minister. Yeah. Yeah. And he was finance minister first when, uh, man, uh, then he became a Prime Minister. Uh, the point is, uh, NRU was one who [01:12:00] established planning commission.
Nru was one who laid the foundation for our public sector undertakings. In fact, Nehru went to the extent of calling modern temples of modern India and, uh, it was Nehru, uh, who did all this, uh, Uh, pro people, uh, measures now Congress party, uh, slide, uh, from that position. In fact, uh, we openly saying, uh, Congress party should revert back to Nru in policies in
Sudipto Mondal: our, but Nru himself has been criticized quite, uh, mentally in your 48 document, saying that he.
No, that's all old documents
D Raja: you are quoting. It's not relevant anymore. There were many things. Even we were critical of Gandhi also. Gandhi was critical of us. And then Gandhi said, Communists are the most dedicated people, philosophically. Yeah. [01:13:00] Then, uh, he spoke Gandhi, so those things don't
Sudipto Mondal: matter.
D Raja: Yeah.
The, and Ambe was, uh, defeated by, uh, Congress in ma Russia. Uh, he could not be in the constraint assembly. Then when Manal had to resign. Yeah. And AMK came from that. Then Bangladesh went, uh, yeah. The, yes. Pakistan Then many questions are there, there, there are many questions. So, we should not bring those things now.
Now what we are saying? Now what we are saying? We want to build a revolutionary party representing the sections of the people who continue to be oppressed and exploited. And that is where only our party can go. Uh, speaks in clear cut terms fighting against man. Yes, I noticed that. Yes. Which party is speaking?
That is true. Yeah. [01:14:00] Our party is speaking, uh, we, uh, uh, keep criticizing and opposing money cost system patriarchy. Yeah. Everywhere. Class exploitation one understands, but what about cost discrimination? What about patriarchy? How can we keep quiet on those issues? Only our party, you can check.
Sudipto Mondal: I didn't check actually.
Our party, how clearly
D Raja: our party spells out its positions on all these matters. So, in Indian context, if one has to move forward to revolution or revolutionary change, you have to address these questions. Caste, class, patriarchy. Unless you address these questions, you cannot build a revolutionary, party revolutionary movement.
This is our understanding and we [01:15:00] keep doing that.
Sudipto Mondal: Right. Thank you, Mr. Rajan. So caste, class, and gender. As concurrent themes in the revolution and the revolutionary class will emerge from these sections, sir. Do you feel that the revolutionary class will emerge from women? No, the revolutionary
D Raja: class, that is why today the class struggle in Indian context, we should think over.
Or class struggle in our times. In our times, right? What class struggle was there in 18th century when, uh, uh, the capitalist mode of production was emerging? That's one thing. Now it's a different time. And here, what is the class struggle? That's where I said out, change the mindset. Everybody is educated.
Everybody has a smartphone and access to information and other things. But why [01:16:00] that attitude has not changed? Why people do not think we are all human beings? We all live, should live together. We have to share our sufferings, difficulties. We have to share our joys. We are all human beings. Why that, uh, uh, uh, that, uh, that is not coming up, emerging?
So, what is the fight in the cultural field, in civilizational field? We keep talking about civilization, referring to old, but my point is, what is your civilization today? So, we'll have to bring revolution in our understanding of civilization also. I am a human being, you are a human being. But why I should have hatred towards you?
Why you should have hatred towards me? Why can't we live together and work together for the common good? [01:17:00] How to bring that change? That is what we are trying to do.
Sudipto Mondal: Alright. Thank you so much Mr. Raja. Uh, I hope I have asked some questions which you found relevant. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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