Amid the ongoing election fever, the Left parties are looking to regain their lost ground. But what are the limitations facing the Red Flag? Why do Indian communists share a difficult relationship with the anti-caste movement? And what is happening in the international communist movement?
In this special two-part episode on What's Your Ism, Sudipto Mondal speaks to the two tallest leaders of the Indian communist movement – Sitaram Yechury, general secretary of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), and D Raja, general secretary of the Communist Party of India.
In part one, Yechury talks about his anti-caste assertions, and confronting caste in his Brahmin household by cutting off his janeu or sacred thread. He also sheds light on the Indian communist’s relationship with the anti-caste movement, laal-neel alliance, and global affairs.
The Marxist politician also speaks about Ukraine war’s connection with India, the commonalities between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Russian counterpart Valdmir Putin, “akhand Russia”, the international communist movement, and his trip to China.
Watch.
Sitaram Yechury
Sudipto Mondal: [00:00:00] The most influential ism in the country today appears to be Hindutva.
It has taken a long time for this ideology to come of age. But what happened to the other ideological movements that began in the early 20th century? The RSS will turn a hundred years old next year, but So will the Communist Party of India.
Ambedkarism, Marxism, Liberalism, Dravidianism, Feminism, Gandhiism. What role are these great big isms of the 20th century playing in the 21st century? What relevance do they have today? I'm an atheist in the same way as I'm an alepric woman. Why have there been casteism existing in the country still today?
Feminism
-: by definition is the belief that men and women should have equal rights.
Sitaram Yechury: The nature of the system is to be as mean and rotten as you can, [00:01:00] uh, to try to, uh,
Sudipto Mondal: The national elections are around the corner, and what better time than now to talk about isms. I'm Sudipto Mandal, and welcome to this special election series of What's Your Ism.
They are part of the most enduring political alliance in the history of India. The two principal communist parties of India, the CPI and the CPM, have worked together for so long that it has become hard to tell them apart. What is the difference between their political lines, and what happened to all that talk of reunification?
Join me in this two part series as I speak to the General Secretaries of the two parties, D. Raja and Sitaram Vyachuri, about communism in India. So today we are going to try and understand the ism of the General Secretary of the Communist Party of India, Marxist. Sitaram Yachuri.
Sitaram Yechury: Hi.
Sudipto Mondal: Hi, sir. Thank you for coming on this show.
Welcome. Sir, uh, the thing is I'm not going to talk to you about, uh, seat [00:02:00] sharing, what's your equation with Rahul Gandhi, what's happening in these elections. All that is the backdrop and I thought it's a good backdrop to talk about ideology, sir.
Sitaram Yechury: Yeah, good.
Sudipto Mondal: Right? Um, and the first question is a very simple one.
Do you think your ideology is difficult to understand? Do the masses get your ideology? Yeah.
Sitaram Yechury: No, of course they do. I mean, the point is, it's not difficult to understand. But it's a, it's a, it's a little difficult to internalize. And, and because whether they understand or internalize or not, everybody is facing that sort of exploitation which my ideology speaks about, which has to be ended.
So we are living that part, every human being, I mean, who belongs to the exploited sections and that is the vast majority.
Sudipto Mondal: So they understand the fact that there is this, uh, rich capitalist sitting on top and that they are being exploited. And in the, in the, in the most basic sense, they might understand the class struggle, but let me put it to you.
So now I have a lot [00:03:00] of cousins and nephews who are probably going to be first time voters this time. And some of them are from Calcutta and they worked in student movements also. But if you ask them, what is the difference between CPI, CPI M and CPI ML, I don't think they'll be able to answer. And I don't think a lot of senior comrades also are able to answer that very convincingly.
What's the difference, sir?
Sitaram Yechury: Well, the difference was, I mean, it goes back into historical period when the entire question, uh, arose. Sir, can I
Sudipto Mondal: interrupt you? Sorry. That historic, I thought you'll say this, you know, the historical thing. I mean, pardon me for saying this, but we have a sense of what happened and why you guys split up and all those things.
Where does it stand now, sir? What are the differences now? Because
Sitaram Yechury: unless you understand that history, it's very difficult to say where do you stand now. Sure. Okay. So the basic question was that what is the manner in which you can have a social transformation process in India. I mean, one was in while being attached to the [00:04:00] ruling party of that time, which was talking socialist rhetoric.
And therefore, the whole theory emerged that there is a possibility to bypass the stage of capitalism and move towards socialism. And India is one of such cases. So you had one section of the communist movement aligned with those in the world who were propagating this non capitalist path of development.
And that was primarily the Russian Communist Party, CPSU. And one section aligned with that understanding. The other one was that in India, the ruling classes, everything also centered around the assessment of the ruling classes. In India, the ruling classes was actually, I mean, doesn't have a sizable social base.
It's isolated from the people. It is ruling precisely because it has been set up by imperialism to rule. And therefore, it's an imperialist puppet. [00:05:00] So you have, it's a comprador class.
-: Right.
Sitaram Yechury: So one section thought it was a progressive class, one said it was a comprador. Comprador. Comprador means it is somebody who is actually subservient to imperialist interests.
Collaborators? Collaboration, I mean it's worse than collaboration. Collaboration is, you can collaborate on equal terms. Right. But Comprador is that you are an unequal collaborator, where you are the junior and you listen to them. Right. So that's why you are virtually like a puppet for them.
Sudipto Mondal: An undertaker.
Sitaram Yechury: Well, not in the physical sense of an undertaker, but, uh, In a sense, that's right. And the third section says that no Indian ruling classes have a sizable social following. And unless we are able to weed away that social following towards the revolutionary movement, you cannot really advance. So the first category of a progressive bourgeoisie, that [00:06:00] became the CPI.
The third category of a competitor or a subservient, which had no social base. So it's very easy to overthrow them. All that is required is to arm the people. So therefore, people's revolution or, I mean, arming the people. Right. And the Armed Revolution concept. And that become then those days called the , which is today the Maoist Maoist.
Pardon? And the third one we said, no, it is an independent, uh, I mean social base of the ruling classes, which has to be weed away from them. That can happen only through struggles against their policies. And that was the CPI. And so one was the Russian part, one was the Chinese part. We said we are the Indian part.
So we remain that. So that is the difference. Now. What is the difference today? Today,
Sudipto Mondal: yeah. And when, when we talk about today, sir, I also tried to do a little bit of homework and I gave up after that. , you know, the reason I say this, you see here I have the, uh, uh, uh, the 24th party Congress Yeah. Of the [00:07:00] CPII.
Yours is on the website. So I, I read that Good. I read the CPI ml and it became like one of those match the following exercises, you know, wherein I really couldn't tell apart. The lines of at least CPI ML. We'll keep it aside for a second. CPI CPM. I just couldn't tell the line apart. And why do you think that is?
And while you are answering that, sir, uh, I will still push you once again. But this reunification talk, right, the CPI always seems to have its door open and the CPM seems to, what, have a door half open, closed. What is this reunification thing and please tell me about
Sitaram Yechury: that. Yeah, I will come to that. But right now, between the CPI and us, on most of the positions, there is a commonality approach.
But then on some tactical issues, there will be. So, I that's only natural even in the same party if you could have the differences within the same leadership committees as well, I mean that's perfectly Okay. But with the CPI this, this, this will happen. The background of the split in the division. I mean, those questions are not [00:08:00] yet resolved.
Sudipto Mondal: Can you repeat that, sir? What is that again?
Sitaram Yechury: Those questions that led to the division of the party.
Sudipto Mondal: Right. You think they are not?
Sitaram Yechury: They are not yet resolved. I mean, in the sense that they are not theoretically resolved. It can be. We can sit down and talk about them and try and do that, but then that will take a lot of time.
And the actual situation in the country doesn't permit that luxury at the moment. Can I respond to that
Sudipto Mondal: in a very flippant way? You know, the flippant response to that would be that the communists sit across in these coffee houses and they're discussing theory while the country is burning. That's what I
Sitaram Yechury: don't want to do.
Sudipto Mondal: That's
Sitaram Yechury: what I'm saying. There's no point in going through that sort of an experience. Right, but the point is on many of the, uh, practical issues, tactical issues, there's a commonality with the question of unification that you talked about. Unification does not come with the golden handshake from the top, by the leadership.
It has to be built from below. [00:09:00] We have seen such process of unifications from the top and how they crumble like a house of cards. Nepal is a classic example. Ah, Nepal,
Sudipto Mondal: of course.
Sitaram Yechury: All, all of them united. The, the three of them again. Yeah. Again three factions. Yeah, exactly. Similar. In South Asia, I mean, you almost had that.
The similar, what you call divisions like you had in India. Right. So they all sat down together, shook their hands and said we are a unified party now. Right. But it didn't work down, down below. Now they are again separated into three, three factions. Now that will lead to more, do more damage to the united movement than.
Then good. So what is required is to build up that unity from below. And not try and formally unite from the top. Which
Sudipto Mondal: means the mass organizations, AITUC, CITU, all
Sitaram Yechury: these. So, so let this, and that is happening at the lower level.
Sudipto Mondal: Is it happening? Because, okay, I'll just speak from my reporting experience. I told you I was working in Mangalore and there the BD [00:10:00] unions are your backbone, at least were BD unions and your tied unions.
Yeah. In the negotiations, AITUC, CITU are constantly at each other's throat. And there is. You know, unnis biska farag kind of in line saying PF should be how much gratuity should be? How do you?
Sitaram Yechury: Unless you resolve all these issues at the ground level, no unification, proper unification is possible.
Sudipto Mondal: Then why do the
Sitaram Yechury: CTIs?
So these unions, in three years, trade unions for example, you have your student organization, women's organization, you have your Kisan organization. So unless they start working together and, and resolve their issues, that, that is what is happening in many places, whether it's succeeding or not, like you said, the example that you've given, that way, that is not the point.
The point is, is the effort being made. Then it will succeed. Over a period of time. So that is the process through which any unification is possible.
Sudipto Mondal: And that effort is happening?
Sitaram Yechury: But in practical purposes, from the [00:11:00] top, we are moving unitedly. I mean, not only we, along with the rest of the left parties. The five of them.
And that is the level of political responses to what is happening. Our discussions with the other parties, you know, on issues like that. On that there is commonality. So this is the process of innovation that will take a little time, but that will be much more stable. rather than having a, you know, handshake, uh, golden handshake sort of a thing.
Sudipto Mondal: So I'll ask you one more question, if you'll allow me on this subject, you, I didn't let you finish your theoretical points. Okay. Is there a simple way of telling us what is theoretical differences between the CPI's line and the CPM's line in a simple way for my nephews and cousins. Now.
Sitaram Yechury: Yes. Now, now, now theoretically the question is of an assessment of the, uh, class character of the ruling party.
Who is the ruling party in India? Right. Right. We, we say that this is a [00:12:00] bourgeois landlord, that is the capitalist and the land invested interest. They are in alliance led by the. The big corporates are the big capitalists.
Sudipto Mondal: So the leadership
Sitaram Yechury: of the ruling classes is the big corporates, big capitalist class.
You're big, you're big five, everybody understands who they are. Name them, name them.
Sudipto Mondal: One more chance for you to name them. Earlier it was
Sitaram Yechury: Tata's and Birla's and now it's Adani's and Ambadi's. You know, they are leading this combination.
Sudipto Mondal: Right. And the landlord class, how do you identify
Sitaram Yechury: it? Yeah, landlord class are those who actually today, even today, own huge amounts of land, in whichever form.
They have to, they bypass the, I mean, abolition of Zamindari, what do you call, laws, and still retain a huge amount of land. There are landlord class sections, there's a rich peasantry, there's a middle peasantry, and [00:13:00] then of course there's a poor peasantry and marginal farmers, which is the bulk. So these are the classes within the, uh, uh, within rural India, right?
No, the question is that while the CPI still continues to remain, that this is essentially a bourgeois state. That is in the sense it is the capitalist, uh, state. State, okay. Which may, may be cooperating this thing with the landlords, but they don't accept Landlords are actually an integral part of this picture.
Sudipto Mondal: Oh, okay. So, but this
Sitaram Yechury: is also over a period of time that is also changing with them as well as their understanding. That's why I said it will take a matter of time before these discussions will come up.
Sudipto Mondal: So,
Sitaram Yechury: in practical terms, what does it mean? It means that you, any of policies which are aimed at consolidating their class interest, which essentially means actually intensifying exploitation of the exploited [00:14:00] sections.
If you want to consolidate the other end, you have to intensify exploitation at this end.
-: Right.
Sitaram Yechury: So those issues you will have to mount much bigger and stronger united struggles. And which, the classic example is what you've seen with the farmer's, uh, struggle this time.
Sudipto Mondal: Actually, the farmer's struggle this time, it's a little, uh, how do I put it, you can't put a finger on it, right?
No. This round. This round, uh, your party as well as the CPI has taken a slightly guarded position. You're not part of the alliance, are you, this time? No, no, you see. What exactly is? There was
Sitaram Yechury: one section of the farmers who do not formally associate with the, uh, SKM, Sanmigdha, Kisan Moksha, they conducted the struggle but in a separate platform.
This one is led by those, those who conducted the separate thing, which also included those who broke through into the Red Fort, if you remember the March, etc. They did that. But the [00:15:00] SKM is fully supporting them, supporting their struggle and also in solidarity with the repression that has been unleashed on them.
Sudipto Mondal: Right.
Sitaram Yechury: They are taking solidarity actions, etc. We've also condemned all that repression and things. So that is the difference. I mean, they are not formally part of the SKM.
Sudipto Mondal: Have there been, there's some whispers that they've been infiltrated in a sense by the SKM. Uh, certain right, right wing formations, is that true?
That is,
Sitaram Yechury: that is what, uh, generally the, the apprehension or let us say the, the feeling is. That is the apprehension, yeah. The, the feeling is, but in nevertheless, but on the question of solidarity with the Kisans and their struggles, because the demand is something which is same. That is, you have to have a legal guarantee for a minimum support price.
As per the Swaminathan Commission, who's now been given the Bharat Ratna, you know, of, of that, uh, I mean, at the cost of interest, plus [00:16:00] 50%. That is C2, the estimated, plus 50%. So, since that is, demand is the same, they are supporting. But, but now, it has reached the stage where the obduracy of the government is once again very obvious.
Yeah. I mean, earlier, for one year, they would refuse to really discuss with the Kisans. They had a number of meetings where Kisans were called. to have their meeting and in fact the Kisan leaders, leadership did not even eat the food they provided, the government. They were a lot
Sudipto Mondal: more militant on that occasion.
Sitaram Yechury: But entirely peaceful again without doing anything. But this time around, on three occasions I think, at least two occasions, three ministers flew down to Chandigarh. To talk to these people, but still nothing came out. So there's pressure from below among the Kisan saying that nothing short of an illegal guarantee for an [00:17:00] MSP.
Sudipto Mondal: Okay, I'll come to this again, this question of Kisan. Who is Kisan? Uh, you used three, four terms to describe different sections of the, of the agricultural class. You said landlords. Peasantry, medium landholders and all that. We'll come to that part, but when you broke down your solidarity or the extension of your support on the basis of, uh, there are some economic realities, there are some demands on that basis.
We support it to that extent. Do you feel that in the, I've seen this happening over and over again with, uh, the left where they extend this kind of solidarity to, uh, labor issues? And that body of, uh, laborers or the union that is agitating may be progressive in terms of their demand on the economic front.
But they also happen to be a little culturally, uh, woozy or a little difficult to define. More often than not, little right wing, maybe little sanghi. [00:18:00] And that, that part is somehow, you know, come to define many of your ideas. Union activities, right, which is that you are working with, uh, let's say even the case of Mangalore again, my experience of reporting on unions is from there.
So the same person who is coming for a protest demanding PF and gratuity part of a C2 or AI2C protest is also doing Jai Shri Ram somewhere, okay. Because that cultural education hasn't happened. Do you think that's a failure?
Sitaram Yechury: No, it's not. I mean, it is definitely shortcoming. I mean, that's why the general adage goes that for struggles is the red flag, for voting it's some other color, the flag is of a different color.
So that, that confidence that the workers and the farmers have in the red flag on economic issues. Yeah. That degree of confidence we have not been able to generate on social issues. And social oppression issues.
Sudipto Mondal: That's a candid admission. So
Sitaram Yechury: that, that [00:19:00] is the short cut.
Sudipto Mondal: It is a short cut.
Sitaram Yechury: That is definitely what has to be overcome.
And we are working towards that. But in this agitation you will find, it's for the first time that the entire cross section of the of the Agricultural, you know, workers and from agricultural workers to the rich peasantry. They all came together in opposition to these farm, farm laws.
-: Yeah.
Sitaram Yechury: Supported by the trade unions.
That is a very significant part of it. And trade unions supporting, I mean, the, uh, Kisan supporting the trade union struggles. So this solidarity is a new feature and a very important feature.
-: Okay. Noted. Okay.
Sudipto Mondal: Sir, uh, uh, yours is a party or you're part of a movement which has always had a very, uh, uh, strong opinion on international affairs.
Right? And I was, like I said, I did some homework, read your, uh, Party Congress documents in Kannur. Uh, now, uh, there were many parties. who turned up over there and I found that most of them, like I [00:20:00] said, right, they were saying similar things. Now, when it comes to Ukraine, your position, the CPI's position is fairly similar.
NATO, America, this entire build up on the borders of Russia, troops massing over there in response to which, Russia goes to war. Okay, but the CPI ML, now this is Deepankar Bhattacharya of the CPI ML. I'll read out his statement and then you can tell me how you differ with this. So he says, Um, as you assemble for the 23rd Congress in the shadow of a prolonged pandemic, we are witnessing yet another war in Europe.
Putin has declared independent Ukraine a mistake of Lenin and is threatening to undo it by bombing the second largest former Soviet republics out of existence. The war on Ukraine has been on for more than a month now and has already killed thousands of civilians and forced millions to flee for safety.
India has the largest number of foreign students studying in Ukraine and yet the Modi government did precious little by way of diplomatic initiatives to stop the war [00:21:00] or logistical arrangements to ensure speedy safe evacuation of students stuck in Ukraine. Just as Modi's India has betrayed the Palestinian cause in the face of intensified Israeli aggression.
It now effectively supports Putin's invasion of Ukraine. The victorious revolution of 1917 had not only snapped the imperialist chain at its weakest link and freed Russia from the shackles of the tsarist autocracy, it had also ended toxic domination of the great Russian chauvinism. to turn the prison of nationalities into a multinational socialist confederation.
Geopolitical factors apart, the current war is essentially an attempt to destroy that Leninist legacy. We, Indian communists, cherish the revolutionary legacy of Lenin and raise our voice for peace and justice, rejecting Putin's war and its consequences. And the NATO, US NATO expansion is designed in Europe.
What do you think? Well,
Sitaram Yechury: there is a difference in perception of that [00:22:00] entire reality. That the war was caused by Putin according to what you read out to me.
Sudipto Mondal: This is Deepankar, not me. This is Deepankar Bhattacharya, CPI, MLJ. I know that.
Sitaram Yechury: I know that. I mean, the war is caused by Putin. Whereas we, our assessment and understanding, which is also the CPI's assessment and understanding, is this war has been caused by USA and NATO.
And this was the entire, the, the betrayal, I mean, which is only expected. By way
Sudipto Mondal: of provocation you mean? By way, I saw your documents, by way of provocation. I am
Sitaram Yechury: just coming to it. I mean, betrayal which is only natural, which is expected from them. Of saying that they will not move east of Berlin, Berlin, when the Cold War ended, when the Berlin Wall fell.
The NATO will not move eastward, but it's now gone all over the place, except in Ukraine and maybe Georgia, I think. I don't know if it's formally joined or not yet. Except for these two former Soviet, I mean, [00:23:00] Soviet republics, except for these two, you had all the others being grabbed by NATO. So the NATO alliance is on the doorstep of Russia and you virtually not only provoke but threaten Russia through, through this NATO thing, etc.
So what we have said is that this war must end immediately. went immediately, at the same time, the NATO alliance should move back to where they promised that they would be. And it's no longer a North Atlantic Treaty Organization. I mean, it's now a global military alliance, you know, led by the USA. So this has got a very, very serious international ramification.
It's a global military alliance, which can intervene like it did in Afghanistan, like it did with, uh, you know, various parts of the Middle East. [00:24:00] And like it is doing now with, you know, in various countries of it, like Syria, like in Iran, on the ongoing genocidal assault of Israel against the Palestinians.
And so, I'm just letting
Sudipto Mondal: you list out the evil things that NATO and US have done. I mean, it's known, but you have a right to talk about it. You should also. I mean,
Sitaram Yechury: it's not really known. No, come on. We know, but
Sudipto Mondal: anyway, you should talk about it. Yeah, yeah.
Sitaram Yechury: And you see, so that is the actual provocation. NATO, I mean, Ukraine is only the theatre of this war.
Unfortunately, it is the theatre of this war. And it is being used, the present, uh, Ukraine regime, by the NATO alliance and USA for its, uh, Eastward expansion and what is actually being created in the, in the world today by this NATO alliance and led by the U. S. is actually pushing the world into another Cold [00:25:00] War situation.
Sudipto Mondal: The
Sitaram Yechury: confrontation with China and this, uh, you know, Ukraine war, I mean, all this is pushing the world towards a new Cold War situation, which is, which is our problem.
Sudipto Mondal: Okay, this is pushing the world towards cold war, but it seems to be stretching left ideologues also at their seams. The reason I say this is because I was, I was telling you, right?
I had Kavita Krishnan. She quit the party. On the question of how, not just the CPI ml, but the larger left in India deals with questions of Russia, China, , you know? Okay. Okay. So, uh, she said one thing, which is a provocation and offer to you also, and you can respond saying, so, she said, um, um, uh, Ukraine is a former colony of the USSR.
Sitaram Yechury: You see when the USSR was formed, remember the USSR was formed in 1922, the Russian Revolution arrived in 1917. After [00:26:00] five years, each one of these, I mean, Eastern European countries, were given the offer, I mean, offer, what do you call it, offer. Of being part of the confederation. Part of the confederation and therefore it became the USSR.
So, when that happened, remember, Lenin himself gave the, I mean, when the draft constitution was there, it said, they, each one of these nationalities. Ukraine, Belarusian, Georgian, etc, they are part of this federation, but with even the right to secede in the case, self determination of nationalities.
Sudipto Mondal: So there is Lenin's legacy and Kavita talked about Stalin's legacy.
Sitaram Yechury: Again, Stalin's legacy is again what? Which context? You had the war builder. The first ones to have noticed was that the war was, is directed by Hitler then. Primary target is the destruction of socialist, uh, you know, USSR. And that was the principal [00:27:00] target. And these frontline states, I mean all these settled Asian republics, were the first ones, of the Eastern European countries, were the first ones to be occupied by Hitler, because no other capitalist country provided any resistance.
Hitler occupies Paris without firing a shot. He occupies Vienna and virtually takes it over. And he converts Prague into virtually his capital. That's why you walk through Prague even today, it's like a museum city. Because no buildings were destroyed. All the medieval structures are still there in Prague.
So, you have, they did not resist. The resistance he was thinking will come only from Soviet Union. And which is what was the final reality. It was the red flag that, I mean, you know, flew on top of the [00:28:00] Reichstag after the, when Hitler, when the war ended. So, at that stage, these front line states, and mainly Ukraine, If you look at their passage, even today, one of the things that rankles the Russians and Putin is actually that the entry of Nazi army is through Ukraine.
Napoleon is through Ukraine. So that is the part that they are very sensitive to allow that to be controlled
Sudipto Mondal: by
Sitaram Yechury: potential adversaries or enemies. So there's that historical background. So Stalin's treatment of Ukraine was also purely from the war effort. And they couldn't stop them there. They couldn't stop them till they entered, till Stalin ran, they could go.
Or Volgograd today, you know, till that. That is when the battle turned.
Sudipto Mondal: So again, like if you go into history, you know, then obviously it's No, no, no, you have to, of [00:29:00] course, no, no, no. But, you know, so if you bring it to the present context and that's, uh, Important also because he, um, uh, Kavita pointed me to one particular character called Alexander Dugan.
He's supposed to be Putin's Rasputin. Uh, he's a columnist, uh, has a chair in university, a big university in Russia. He has a chair in a Chinese university also. You know, he's supposed to be the mind of Putin. Now. He talks while he talks about multipolarity and all that, which has been the line of the left for a long time, right?
There should be a multipolar world, but he says it in a very perverted way. He almost, he says that, uh, there are these civilizational states. India is a civilizational state, so is China and Russia, and there is some kind of ethno nationalist kind of imagination he has, saying that Akhand Bharat, Akhand Russia, you know, and this is not some random thing, he is not a random person, and he has not written all this in some random publication, some right rag.
In seminar, you know, he wrote this article where he says these things, where he says that if India respects Russia's values, larger ambitions. India can respect [00:30:00] India, I mean, Russia can respect India's larger, you know, ambitions and things like that. Do you see in today's time that there is a growing alliance over there between right over there and right in India?
You see, there
Sitaram Yechury: is always an alliance between all reactionary elements in the world. Whether stated or not stated, public or not public, there is always an empathy between themselves. The great Russian Empire, Catherine the Great, for instance, said, The Russia can defend its borders only by expanding it.
Exactly. I think that's what Deepankar is saying when he says Russian sovietism. So the question is, back to Russian imperial chauvinism or whatever that is, or India's Akhand Bharat, you know, these sort of things, they find an empathy with each other. Whether, I don't know, whether it's stated public policy or not of that particular state at the time.
So that's not a big issue. That is to be understood. I mean, you know, that, that people will, will, will, uh, what do you call, [00:31:00] what do you call, support each other, such elements. Right. And that is true in any of these other countries as well. I mean, what do you see in the world today? There is a very sharp, noticeable rightward political shift.
Sudipto Mondal: Do you see that in Russia? Do you see that Putin's motivations might be
Sitaram Yechury: coming from there? It's a global phenomenon, including,
Sudipto Mondal: uh, India. India
Sitaram Yechury: toh hai hi. Bolsonaro, Erdogan, you know, Putin and Modi. I mean, you have, you know, this sort of a trend of a rightward shift. And the rightward shift has got very strong fascistic elements and a direction.
So they will find empathy with each other. That is why today Modi is also able to build up this sort of an alliance of these right wing forces, including the shift to the right in the U. S. itself.
Sudipto Mondal: So isn't that a realignment of the old order? So there are right wing Americans doing business, right wing Russians doing business with [00:32:00] supposedly, I don't know if it is true, but right wing Chinese and with Indians.
Isn't this something that, uh, merits a comment from you, your party, because I don't see any of that in the document. No,
Sitaram Yechury: we have it. In our party constitution, you'll find.
Sudipto Mondal: Putin has mentioned. No,
Sitaram Yechury: we didn't mention names. Yeah. But we mentioned the countries where you have these tendencies. Okay. Brazil, you know, Turkey, even India, Russia, you know, where all these tendencies are there.
And there's a whole section on this rightward shift in global politics. Now, this is changing and this only assists the effort to push the world into a new Cold War situation.
Sudipto Mondal: Right, I heard you say that. Sir, uh, Actually, okay. Now, uh, my last question in this IR section, you know, this international relations thing, there used to be something called the common turn when you were a young student activist in the SFI and things like that.
And we were, we were made to believe that, uh, the Indian communist parties used to have a fair amount of say in this formation, you know, and that we [00:33:00] would take our message and how we practice our communism. to the countries in the other parts of the world. Does that, because I saw in your, um, um, Party Congress, there were foreign delegates, there was somebody from Cuba, from China, from Venezuela.
That's in the
Sitaram Yechury: CPI Congress, not in ours. It was also, there were some messages of greeting and all that. No, Not in Kannur? Earlier they were.
Sudipto Mondal: Okay. So my simple question is, what influence do you have today on the international communist movement? You went to China last year, last, last year. Uh, you and Mr.
Raja, year before last. Do you take to them saying that, hey, this is our constitution? No,
Sitaram Yechury: no.
Sudipto Mondal: This is, this is how democracy works and this is the framework in which we are functioning.
Sitaram Yechury: You see, all said and done about Stalin, whatever people may have their opinion.
Sudipto Mondal: No, I'll tell you
Sitaram Yechury: why I'm saying. Once the Second World War ended and fascism was defeated, after that, you know, and the Russian, I mean, and the Chinese revolution triumphed, along with the North Korean and the Vietnam and things, all that going on.
[00:34:00] At that point of time, Comintern was shut down. It was shut down because it was well that the, there is no real world center of revolution.
-: Yeah.
Sitaram Yechury: And, and therefore, it was Stalin who took that initiative saying that you cannot have a world center directing each country, you know, how it should be done.
Every country has an equal status, independent, and they will have to follow through. Whatever assistance they may ask, that as Communist International, we shall be providing them. But there is no platform or a forum. Like it used to exist pre Second World War.
Sudipto Mondal: Now, where does the conversation happen? Does there, is there give and take?
Are there discussions about lines? Yeah, there are individual
Sitaram Yechury: contacts with the, uh, communist parties. Like, we have our relations with all the communist parties, most of the communist parties in the world. Like other, they have relations with most of the others in the world. So, once a year, there is a gathering.
of representatives [00:35:00] of these communist parties. That is called the, I mean, international workers and communist parties. They meet once a year, exchange opinions and work out some actions of solidarity, common actions of solidarity. So that is taking place, that cooperation. But beyond that, there is no world center of a revolution that exists and I don't think it should.
It shouldn't
Sudipto Mondal: also. I mean,
Sitaram Yechury: China is very different from India, but is there anything that
Sudipto Mondal: they can learn from the Indian example, you think?
Sitaram Yechury: They want to, they have always Can a
Sudipto Mondal: Chinese communist learn anything from an Indian communist, or when you go to China? Well,
Sitaram Yechury: they are very, I mean, when we go, because when we used to go, you know, of late it's not been happening.
There used to be a regular exchange of delegations. Right. Not only with the communists, but they would do it with all the other parties. Yes. The Congress, the BJP also. Hmm. I mean, they all would. So, they, they were very keen, and I think they said, [00:36:00] Narayan, how, in a capitalist society, how do we manage to win elections in the states, communists, and form governments?
And, the work of those governments, within the capitalist setup, how that can benefit the people. I mean, this is an aspect which is new to them. Completely noble, not only to them, to the Russians, to everybody.
Sudipto Mondal: Right, right. That in a
Sitaram Yechury: capitalist country, through elections, communists winning and forming governments.
Yeah. That is something they want to understand, I think, deeper, how this is possible, what are the meanings of it, etc. So that's one area they were always interested in.
Sudipto Mondal: Okay, interesting. So, we'll come to the Indian things in just one section. This is the last section. And in India, it seems like somehow there's always been this thing, you know, that the communists have not figured out the question of identity.
And [00:37:00] I don't even want to ask a question straight up, I just want to refer to something that you said in the beginning, right, when he was describing, uh, India, which is that there is a capitalist class, the bourgeoisie, then there is large landholders, middle peasants. Now, one may ask, why don't you just say, uh, that, you know, there's a Brahmin Baniya coalition on top, which is the capitalist.
There is a, uh, you know, coalition of intermediary communities. Uh, who are in charge of land, who are the large landholders in the rural area, you know, in each state. When you, when you talk about the realities being different in different communist countries, uh, the difference, there's a lot of difference between different states in India.
So somewhere the red is the landlord somewhere, uh, the goda is the landlord. So, but invariably the NAND is either a Dali, , depending on which community it is. Somewhere, it may be in somewhere, it may be a maah. These nomenclatures, do you think that you should have [00:38:00]
Sitaram Yechury: You see, the danger of using these nomenclatures, number one, I mean, we shouldn't because our understanding Does that make
Sudipto Mondal: you a little inaccessible, you think, when everybody is talking that language and you don't, and you are seeking to create this working class revolution and the working class doesn't understand these terminologies?
No, why not?
Sitaram Yechury: They do. In fact, everybody else who is talking that language also understands. Right. The contradictions that are coming through. Why is the demand for a caste census coming from those very sections?
-: Hmm.
Sitaram Yechury: Why do they want that existing reality to be fully known? I mean, so, therefore, these contradictions, and this has to be understood in a larger context.
You see, there is not an issue of caste versus class in India. Caste stratification pre exists capitalism. That it predates, you know, capitalism. So, when capitalist development began in India, It began in a society that was already stratified under the caste [00:39:00] hierarchies. So it's a class caste overlap. Or as
Sudipto Mondal: you put it, I've got a section where you have been asked this question and I'm sure you've been asked this question many times.
Many times. Many times, it's one of those things. So you say in an interview to the Hindu, This was, uh, 2016. Rohit Vemula had happened, Ambedkar had turned 125, and all of that. So you say there's a cultural identity issue with Dalits. Uh, it's a welcome thing, a literature of culture, of rebellion against social oppression.
But the problem of social oppression cannot be solved only by advancing identity issues. It can be solved primarily by economic empowerment, and along with that, identity issues will also be important. So, the solution to the problem of oppression is not an identity issue. For us, it is a class issue. Okay.
And then I, I'll, I'll read out a section, one small little, uh, article, I mean, section from an article Mr. Raja wrote, same 2015 16. He says, uh, about Ambedkar. He's talking, both of you have been talking about left Ambedkar at Unity, Lal Salam, [00:40:00] Neel Salam, all of that. So in that thing, he's also writing about this only.
And he says, Ambedkar opened a debate between caste and class in the Indian context, which is significant even today. His vision for India's freedom is most revolutionary. Because it calls for the annihilation of caste, which is more fundamental than economic socialism.
Sitaram Yechury: There
Sudipto Mondal: is a slight difference, no, over here.
What do you say about that? I mean You know,
Sitaram Yechury: I said annihilation of caste cannot happen without taking the entire class question. In mine. So that's why I said in India, the class struggle, not general. The class struggle in, in India stands on two feet like us. One is economic exploitation, the other is social oppression.
Unless these two are combined, you cannot even walk. Forget running, you know, so, so it is how to combine these two, that is the issue. Mm-Hmm. . That is why today you see, for [00:41:00] example, when Ambe gave this constitution. I headed the drafting committee, which drew up this constitution. And when he presented this constitution, he talked about all the entitlements of the Indian people.
I mean, you see, what is liberty, equality, fraternity, along with that, justice, a very important element of your constitution, which is economic, social, and political. And that equality is based on delivery of justice for all. Now, these entitlements, it was then anticipated by Dr. Ambedkar himself, that it will take a period of at least 10 years to become a reality.
Till then, the socially oppressed must be assisted. And therefore, reservations for a period of 10 years. Why did that 10 year period come for reservations? [00:42:00] Which had to be extendable. So, what did this assume? That you would, number one, do, I mean, provide all the people equality with, with these entitlements.
Number two, you will economically empower the disempowered today. Which are mainly the, the socially, you know, oppressed, uh, whatever the sections. Like the Dalits and the Adivasis You know, those sections. And these are the two important elements. Implementation of entitlements and economic empowerment.
Unless you do these two, annihilation of caste is not possible. That's Ambedkar's own thinking. And
Sudipto Mondal: there's a lot of clarity when you say that, okay. But when you, but why, so you always, you do accept that you had a difficult relationship with both Ambedkar when he was alive. And with Ambedkarites who came afterwards, right?
Like, for example, uh, so I was going through this [00:43:00] one very interesting document, 1948, uh, program of democratic revolution, right? That's the first charter in the second congress of the CPI, you brought out this charter for how you will participate in Indian democracy. In that, for the first time you had the mention of caste.
And in which you say that, uh, You appreciate that, you know, Ambedkar is this reformer and all of that, but you also call him a separatist and, uh, somebody who's weaning away Dalits from the mainstream cause of fighting imperialism. And you say, Jogendranath Munro and, uh, uh, Ambedkar, though they have taken minister positions, Jogendranath became a minister in, uh, Pakistan and, uh, Ambedkar became a minister in India.
And they have abandoned the cause of the thing and collaborated with the imperialists. So, obviously I am not saying that you still hold that position. But it was a painful transition to come to a point where now you are saying that this person matters and his contribution is important. What are the factors that led to this?
No,
Sitaram Yechury: what matters is what Ambedkar said matters. The polemics between Ambedkar and the Gaukam is well established. [00:44:00] At that period of time. You'll have a lot of these, I mean, at that, uh, context of time. What were the
Sudipto Mondal: landmark turning points, you think, sir? Because people say 2016 was a very important time.
2015 16, campus unrest, Rohit Vemula happens, your leaders are collaborating with Ambedkarite leaders, on a, you know, together on the streets and all of that. Do you think that was a watershed moment where There was a greater awakening about caste issues, about Ambedkar in the communist world. No, no, caste issues, awareness and awareness.
Leave caste issues, but Ambedkar as an icon and things like that. No, no, much
Sitaram Yechury: before that also. I mean, Jyotiba Phule and Savitri Phule were part of it. You go to any of our offices, you'll find their photographs also. And you know, so, Ambedkar, etc. But then the difference was what? Our whole point was, as communists, I can argue for ourselves.
That In spite of such Giles, like, like fully, like a , like per uh, I mean like, uh, many other Congress, uh, d [00:45:00] leaders who become a national teacher. Yeah. Like , I mean who written also a lot. I mean, despite all such, uh, big leaders who could mobilize, let's say lacks of people, you know, they call to arouse them.
Why is the status of the dalis and the backwards what it is today? Seven decades have passed. And every 10 years we have to go on. Because the economic entitlement and economic empowerment has not been given.
Sudipto Mondal: Okay. Can I take you on that a little bit? Okay. I mean, that's the point. Nobody, I do believe that if you read Ambedkar's writings also, there's a lot of focus.
Like his first party was the Independent Labour Party and people focus a lot on his disagreements with Dange. But I found evidence that, you know, till the end he was actually representing Dange in court. You know, defending him as a lawyer and all that. So there is this tanabana relationship over there.
But, uh, in spite of it, there's been a very torrid, uh, uh, lacking in trust kind of relationship between Ambedkarites [00:46:00] and Marxists and CPM and, you know, all these things. And I'll, and I'll, you know, if you don't mind me, if it doesn't make you uncomfortable, I'll take you back to your run ins with Kanchiram.
Sitaram versus Kanchiram. Right? Kanchiram versus Sitaram. And, uh, he asked you why. Where is your leadership? Where is your Dali leadership? In Bengal? You are in power and you came back and you said this, this is a quote that you retracted, but then it came, it came back in circulation. I'll read it out. Okay.
Don't mind it. Yeah, I don't, I don't. So you say K was the education minister for many years in West Bengal. I had no idea he was a Dali. We used to travel all across the country in the same cupe. I did not know he was a Dali till Kra asked this. The point was these things were never part of our consciousness.
Unfortunately, instead of raising the country's level to mine, You might regret this, no? Instead of raising the country's level to mine, where I, a Brahmin, did not even know where I, did not even know I am in the same carriage as a Dalit, [00:47:00] We had to stoop down to the level of Kanchi Ram. We are doing it now.
Sitaram Yechury: Now, that is the part that was wrongly quoted. Wrongly quoted, okay. That I explained also. I'll give you a second to explain. I'll just
Sudipto Mondal: finish off one reaction. So, I mean, obviously, you know, the reference is to your identity. So, S. Anand, another Brahmin, he runs the Navayana book of, I mean, the publishing house.
He says, a Brahmin finds it convenient to act caste blind. For the seemingly radical or liberal secular Brahmin. Caste is at best seen as an issue that is vested in others, the non brahmins and the other lowly creatures. What about caste that resides and originates within himself? This liberal brahmin has to be in denial.
Sitaram Yechury: No, no, this is the entire casteist attack that comes with it. No, if you're caste, I mean, I removed my holy thread when I was in college. So what if we denounce you as a caste? So what the point that was being made there was that this sort of a disinformation campaign. [00:48:00] That there are no Dalits in West Bengal cabinet.
When we found out in the country, all the state governments, the highest proportion of Dalits and Adivasis were in the left governments. Whether it's there or whether in Kerala, it's always in the left government. And Saifur too, this is actually a slur against the communists. That you're anti Dalit, anti this thing, you're not conscious of this, etc.
My point is, what does annihilation of caste mean? That you should be conscious of your caste. And that is what we want, the genuine annihilation of caste. It's not that I should be conscious of my caste and I should be conscious of your caste. Annihilation, that is exactly what Ambedkar talked of. And, and when you want to talk about this, remember, the Congress party in those days did not send Ambedkar to the Constituent Assembly from Maharashtra, Bombay Presidency then.
He had to go to Bengal. It comes from [00:49:00] the Bengal Presidency. And who was the dominant force in Bengal?
Sudipto Mondal: No, but who supported him and who, who nominated him? It was the Muslim League and Muslim League and
Sitaram Yechury: In the assembly, you know, the assembly elected him. Yes, yes. Assembly elected to send him there. There
Sudipto Mondal: were six Namasudra legislators from
Sitaram Yechury: Muslim League.
Muslim League was part of the Bengal Assembly. They were in fact the larger group in the Bengal Assembly. Right. So this sort of a, I mean trying to build up an anti communist this thing, campaign. It is not even in the interest of annihilation of past, uh, when, uh, effort.
Sudipto Mondal: But is there a campaign within the communists to, uh, find common ground with people under the blue flag, you think?
Is that an effort that requires more serious effort? Do
Sitaram Yechury: we get, in fact, the slogan of, uh, Lal Neel, uh, was the slogan that
Sudipto Mondal: Neel in your, any of your alliances, [00:50:00] no sir. You've not made any great alliance with any Neel party, uh, any
Sitaram Yechury: Neel leader. Where is it, Neel party is, where is the Neel party? We want the Neel party to come with us, where is it?
Where is the BSP? We awai all the appeals to, uh, the BSP decided not to align with anybody.
Sudipto Mondal: PR Baker.
Sitaram Yechury: Prash Baker is there with the MBA in ash. Yeah. Yeah. You've been working with him off Is, uh, there with the
congress alliance in, uh, up.
Sudipto Mondal: BCK is also there.
Sitaram Yechury: Yeah. VCK is part of the whole thing. In . Yes. Yes. So all over the place. Wherever they, they have, we, we have this understanding in alliance with them. And in, uh, Jai Bheem, Lal Salam, Lal Salam, Jai Bheem, what's the slogan that the communists coined? Ha, but then
Sudipto Mondal: they said it's appropriation and all of that.
You know, saying that you're appropriating without actually
Sitaram Yechury: imbibing. What, I mean, why can't it be the other way round? That you're imbibing. You're going to just make a charge. [00:51:00] Why can't we say that the Dalit movement is, I mean, appropriating the left, uh, slogans? It's not a question of, you know, changing and trading charges, etc.
What is in the interest?
How do you annihilate caste? How do you
Sudipto Mondal: annihilate caste and this will be my last section or last question actually. It's about Kerala and this is based on the reporting of my colleagues, uh, in the news minute. So my, uh, colleague Haritha John. She went and looked at this practice of Teyam. Now, both communists and people who are anti caste hold Teyam up as this example of what it means to be, let's even say religious, but not necessarily sectarian, not necessarily regressive because Teyam is supposed to be a progressive, uh, non Brahmin, non Vedic kind of a practice.
Now, she went and found that in several villages where the Teyam is conducted, A, the committee has members of the CPM and B, [00:52:00] each of these. Teyams also have proper graded inequality in terms of untouchability. So she went to these party villages in Kannur and in Kasargod and things like that and found that this one thing hasn't changed only.
So, you know, while there is this entire village which is supposedly communist, you know, the party village concept, right? I mean, the whole village is assumed to be communist. And even there, there is this graded inequality, there is untouchability practice when the um, Teyam is being conducted, you know, I'll just read an excerpt from one of those, from one story.
It says, um, many villages where Teyam performers face caste based discrimination are ironically party villages, uh, that is strongholds of the CPIM. The Bhagwati temple is located in one such party village, Raghavan, name changed, a member of the temple committee is also a local CPIM leader. Seated in the veranda on a, uh, of a library, Raghavan spoke to TNM [00:53:00] about how the Communist Party operates.
In these villages. There is a quote from him. Okay. And, sir, these are quotes from the ground. This is genuine reporting. Okay. This says, you see How many non
Sitaram Yechury: communist villages have been visited? Good question. We will
Sudipto Mondal: visit them
Sitaram Yechury: also. No, no, this is, there is a motivation here. How many non communist villages have you visited and reported on such practices?
Sudipto Mondal: I am sure it is more prevalent over there.
Sitaram Yechury: No, no, no. Then you analyze, no, why, what, etc. Here the thing is only to target the communists.
Sudipto Mondal: No, maybe not. So that's not the, see, because I know, I'll tell
Sitaram Yechury: you what else
Sudipto Mondal: it is. See, the thing is, we believe that,
Sitaram Yechury: tell me which party has the guts, courage to appoint a Dalit as a Devaswom minister in charge of the temples?
Right. Tell me.
Sudipto Mondal: Maybe DMK at most, but I don't think DMK has also ever done that. Just your point. So I mean, so
Sitaram Yechury: who's a D? Yeah. Is that there was some minister [00:54:00] in, in, uh, so I mean, who has that courage to do it today?
Sudipto Mondal: Proportionality. So you're basically saying that seat and proportion. No. Therefore,
Sitaram Yechury: the point is if you want to target motivate, no, no, no.
Why? That's fine then. Then we'll meet you at that ground. But if you want the overall, the total reality. I
Sudipto Mondal: suppose what, what is the attempt over here is that see, the thing is, jo guzre, the right wing you can't really comment on. And you really want to hold progressive parties and movements such as yours to slightly higher standards perhaps.
That's where it's coming from, it's not coming from a census. And
Sitaram Yechury: then why, then why does it? Why don't your, uh, tribe, uh, understand the actual reality? Tribe means a journalist. I mean, understand the actual reality. CPM was never part of any temple committees. But when they started being taken over by the RSS.
We said we need to stop it. That is when we entered. That reality is never mentioned. Sir,
Sudipto Mondal: that's an important point. [00:55:00] No, but why is it not mentioned? Now you have.
Sitaram Yechury: No, now I have, but all those it was why?
Sudipto Mondal: Thank you, we stand corrected then. No, no, that is the
Sitaram Yechury: point. That is what I mean. When I say that these are motivated, uh, things, which have a certain target.
Such reports, you'll have to, I mean, we take it also, we take it not with a pinch, but a gunny bag of salt.
Sudipto Mondal: Gunny bag of salt. I mean, you know, you
Sitaram Yechury: don't paint the entire picture. Fair enough. So that, that needs to be corrected. So if you want to annihilate caste, if you want to end caste oppression, it's not a question of calling each other names.
In the actual struggle, where do you stand? Are you there for the economic empowerment of these sections? Are you there for the implementation of the entitlements that the constitution guarantees? And then, then you argue saying that where is the weakness in that movement? So, so that [00:56:00] is how you got to, I mean, we are serious about, I mean, annihilation of caste, ending social oppression.
So that's why we, we combined it with economic exploitation is a class question. And wherever land reforms were done, it That was one place where this Dalit oppression has considerably fallen. And who implemented land reforms? Except for Sheikh Abdullah in J& K. Every other place where land reforms were implemented were left governments.
Why doesn't that ever
Sudipto Mondal: come? Devraja's Karnataka.
Sitaram Yechury: Coastal Karnataka. And that was also limited, not in the extent of actual class wars that took place. Two governments of A. M. S. Dambodiri Path were dismissed. Amongst other issues on this issue. On this issue, yeah. Two united front governments in [00:57:00] Bengal. But they also say on
Sudipto Mondal: the land reforms question, I mean, if you don't mind me, they also say that it didn't really transfer to the lowest communities.
It went to the intermediary communities. But fair enough. I mean, that is one struggle on which you, your party has definitely taken on. Again, again,
Sitaram Yechury: that part, I mean, that I totally agree. Completely question the veracity of that finding.
-: Okay.
Sitaram Yechury: You know, that is also not correct.
-: Hmm.
Sitaram Yechury: And what is happening now, where we, when we lose, it is the reverse.
When the former landlord, erstwhile landlord, actually is reclaiming that land. What is happening? Yes, yes. Happening now in Bengal, that Sandesh Kali.
Sudipto Mondal: Yes, yes.
Sitaram Yechury: What was that? The former landlord whose lands were taken away, given to the landless. He's recapturing those lines. Or recaptured those lines. So that is what was the defeat of the left mean.
So you have to see, see the whole picture.
Sudipto Mondal: Okay, so that was [00:58:00] Sitaram Yechury of the Communist Party of India Marxist and his ism. I'm guessing some of you agreed with what he said, some of you might not have agreed. But I'm pretty sure all of you who heard this discussion know where you stand on these issues and what's your ism.
That's all for now. Thank you.
-: News, laundry and the news minute are possible because of our paying subscribers. We don't run on corporate or government ads. You can be part of changing the news model. Go to news laundry.com. Slash subscription or the news minute.com/subscription. Be part of the community that pays to keep news independent for the smoothest podcast experience.
Download News, laundry, zap. Watch our shows. Listen to our podcast, read our reports. Stay in font. Pay for news. Protect democracy, save the [00:59:00] world.
Newslaundry is a reader-supported, ad-free, independent news outlet based out of New Delhi. Support their journalism, here.
