In a heated interview, the Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy four times refused to answer the MSNBC host Mehdi Hasan when asked to explain his own words: that Donald Trump’s “abhorrent” behaviour made him a “danger to democracy”.
The former president, 77, leads national and key state polls by vast margins despite facing 91 criminal charges under four indictments, two relating to his attempt to overturn the last election.
Ramaswamy, 38, is a biotech entrepreneur who is polling third. In the first debate last month, he made an impression with an aggressive display.
His interview with Hasan on Wednesday started cordially enough, host telling guest: “You and I both grew up as kids of Indian immigrants who love to debate, super confident, perhaps overconfident in our views.
“But here’s the difference. I kind of know my limits … what have you done that even qualifies you to be president of the United States?”
Is Trump the best president of the 21st century, or someone who did “downright abhorrent” things on January 6th? @mehdirhasan presses Vivek Ramaswamy on his flip flops when it comes to the former president. pic.twitter.com/lTSBjIbrFN
— The Mehdi Hasan Show (@MehdiHasanShow) September 6, 2023
Ramaswamy cited his business career and said he was “an outsider who deeply understands the law and the constitution in this country”.
Hasan asked about that business career, specifically an Alzheimer’s drug Ramaswamy “pushed” but which failed clinical trials, by which time he had sold shares in what Hasan called “a classic pump-and-dump scheme”. Ramaswamy angrily denied wrongdoing. Things grew more heated from there.
The two men argued over remarks Ramaswamy made to the Atlantic, in which he voiced conspiracies about 9/11 and the January 6 attack on Congress, which Trump incited and after which Ramaswamy tweeted on 12 January 2021: “What Trump did last week was wrong. Downright abhorrent. Plain and simple.”
Hasan asked: “Is Donald Trump, as you say now, the best president of the 21st century … Or is Trump, as you’ve said in the past, in your books, on Twitter, a ‘sore loser’, who is a ‘danger to democracy’, and who did ‘downright abhorrent’ and egregious things on January 6’? Which one is he, Vivek?”
Ramaswamy said Trump was indeed the best president of the 21st century, and said he “would have made the same judgments that he has made every step of the way”.
Hasan said: “You say he behaved in downright abhorrent behavior that makes him a danger to democracy. Downright.”
Ramaswamy pointed to a Wall Street Journal column from 11 January 2021 in which he said “censorship was the real cause of what happened on January 6”.
Hasan said: “What did Donald Trump do that in your view was downright abhorrent? Second time I’ve asked that.”
Ramaswamy said: “The thing that I would have done differently if I were in his shoes, I would have declared re-election on January 7.”
Hasan said: “That’s not what I asked, Vivek. What did Trump do that was egregious, quote, ‘downright abhorrent’ and a danger to democracy? Can you just explain to our viewers your words?”
Ramaswamy said what happened on January 6 was “reprehensible” and “a true leader should have handled that situation” differently.
Hasan said: “I want to hear from your mouth. You’re scared of him. Why won’t you say what he did that was downright abhorrent?”
Ramaswamy said Hasan was “stitching together three things” he had said.
Hasan said: “I want you to answer my question, Vivek. Three times I’ve asked it. What did Trump do that was downright abhorrent? It’s a simple question. It’s your words, it’s onscreen, what did he do that was downright abhorrent?”
Ramaswamy said: “I believe that failing to unite this country falls short of what a true leader ought to do. That is why I am in this race, to do things differently than any prior president has done them.”
The interview moved on, to Ramaswamy’s opposition to affirmative action and identity politics but previous acceptance of a scholarship, funded by the family of the liberal financier George Soros, for the children of immigrants. Ramaswamy said he’d needed the money. Hasan also challenged Ramaswamy about his “authoritarian” pronouncements. Ramaswamy denied having “an anti-democratic worldview”.
Footage spread rapidly online, generating praise for Hasan.
Jonathan Swan of the New York Times, who won an Emmy for a 2020 interview in which he repeatedly factchecked Trump, called Hasan’s interview “a mini masterclass of keeping eyes on the ball and refusing to be spun”.
