Closing summary
For two hours, the seven Republican candidates gathered in California duked it out over everything from energy to immigration, all in the absence of Donald Trump, the far-and-away frontrunner for the GOP’s presidential nomination. We’ll see if anything that was said on the debate stage at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library this evening changed the contours of the race, but one thing is now clear: none of these candidates will share the debate stage with Trump. He’s opted to skip the third debate set for Miami in November, and his campaign is calling for the Republican Party to cancel it altogether.
Here are some highlights from tonight’s event:
Nikki Haley and Tim Scott squabbled over curtains.
Mike Pence shared aspects of his marriage we never expected him to discuss.
Chris Christie continued to goad Trump, who he says he will now refer to as “Donald Duck”.
Haley jumped on entreprenneur Vivek Ramaswamy for joining controversial social media app TikTok. He argues its the best way to reach young voters.
There was lots of cross-talk and chaos. One of the most prolific interrupters was North Dakota governor Doug Burgum, who complained the moderators weren’t calling on him.
The reviews of the second Republican presidential debate are rolling in from political analysts and they are … not great.
Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia’s Center for Politics:
Truly awful. The whole thing. #GOPDebate
— Larry Sabato (@LarrySabato) September 28, 2023
Fernand R. Amandi of public opinion research firm Bendixen & Amandi:
The #GOPDebate tonight was the worst debate of any kind at any level I have ever seen in life.
— Fernand R. Amandi (@AmandiOnAir) September 28, 2023
GOP pollster Frank Luntz, who thought Nikki Haley and Tim Scott’s argument about curtains was a low point:
Fighting over curtains? Really? That is embarrassing.
— Frank Luntz (@FrankLuntz) September 28, 2023
We're about to have a government shutdown and they're wasting time over curtains. Ridiculous. #GOPDebate https://t.co/1wNGSPrZGs
But did think Chris Christie handled questions about abortion in a way other Republicans could learn from:
Chris Christie showed real pathos on the pro-life question.
— Frank Luntz (@FrankLuntz) September 28, 2023
He shows a way for Republicans to navigate the abortion issue. #GOPDebate https://t.co/xA59gukhQH
Trump to skip third debate - report
Republican rivals hoping to face Donald Trump on the debate stage won’t get their chance. CBS News reports that the former president will skip the third and final debate of the primary process, set for November in Miami:
NEWS: Donald Trump won’t attend the 3rd presidential debate in Miami in November, his senior aide Chris LaCavita tells @cbsnews’s @finnygo.
— Ed O'Keefe (@edokeefe) September 28, 2023
In fact, the Trump campaign is out with a statement calling on the Republican National Committee to cancel the third debate entirely. Here’s the campaign’s senior advisor Chris LaCivita:
Tonight’s GOP debate was as boring and inconsequential as the first debate, and nothing that was said will change the dynamics of the primary contest being dominated by President Trump. President Trump has a 40- or 50-point lead in the primary election and a 10-point lead over Joe Biden in the general election, and it’s clear that President Trump alone can defeat Biden.
The RNC should immediately put an end to any further primary debates so we can train our fire on Crooked Joe Biden and quit wasting time and money that could be going to evicting Biden from the White House.
Fact check: Pence claim he and Trump cut immigration by 90% not really true
Mike Pence claimed that during his and Donald Trump’s administration, they “reduced illegal immigration and asylum abuse by 90%.”
That’s not really true.
The number of Border Patrol apprehensions was higher during the Trump administration than during the last four years of Barack Obama’s administration. There was a change in how US Customs and Border Protection reports migrant encounters during the pandemic, complicating some of this data – pre-pandemic, the agency reported enforcement actions taken under immigration law, but after, it also began reporting actions taken under the Title 42 public health policy that authorized officers to immediately send most migrants at the border back to Mexico.
Analysis by Politifact found that Pence’s 90% reduction figure could be approximated by comparing enforcement data from May 2019, the month that saw the highest number of apprehensions, with data from April 2020 – right as governments around the world moved to severe restrict travel due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
“That’s a severely cherry-picked period,” the fact-checking group writes.
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It’s worth noting that the moderators’ attempts to spur even more conflict between the candidates was not particularly well received.
None of them were willing to name another to be voted off the stage, or the island, as it were:
Fox News debate moderator Dana Perino: “Which one of you on stage tonight should be voted off the island? Please use your marker to write your choice on the notepad in front of you. 15 seconds.”
— The Recount (@therecount) September 28, 2023
Led by Ron DeSantis, the candidates refuse to participate in the exercise. pic.twitter.com/9pQMINqxbA
Second Republican debate concludes
The candidates are now leaving the stage after the moderators wrapped up the second Republican presidential debate with a question that, fittingly, invoked Donald Trump.
In the debate’s final moments, the candidates were asked by the moderators to write down which other candidate they would – in the style of pioneering reality TV program Survivor – vote off the stage. Chris Christie chose Trump, the frontrunner for the nomination who did not attend.
“This guy has not only divided our party, he divided families all over this country. He’s divided friends all over this country,” Christie said. “I’ve spoken to people and I know everyone else has, who have sat at Thanksgiving dinner or at a birthday party and can’t have a conversation anymore if they disagree with Donald Trump. He needs to be off the island and taken out of this process.
Vivek Ramaswamy disagreed. “I think Trump was an excellent president. But the America first agenda does not belong to one man. It does not belong to Donald Trump. It doesn’t belong to me. It belongs to you, the people of this country. And the question is who’s going to unite this country and take the America first agenda to the next level?” he said.
“We did not just hunger for a single man, we hungered for the unapologetic pursuit of excellence and yes, I will respect Donald Trump and his legacy because it’s the right thing to do.”
And with that, the debate was over.
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Call it the Squabble in South Carolina.
While the debate may be taking place in Simi Valley, California, the two candidates hailing from the Palmetto state – Senator Tim Scott and Nikki Haley, the state’s former governor – just got into it over gas taxes, curtains and several other things.
“As the UN ambassador, you literally put $50,000 on curtains in a $15m subsidized location,” Scott said, while Haley defiantly interjected, “bring it, man.”
“You got bad information,” Haley, who served as UN ambassador under Donald Trump, replied. “On the curtains, do your homework, Tim, because Obama bought those curtains.”
“Did you send them back?” the senator asked.
“It’s the state department!” Haley shot back at Scott. “Did you send them back? You’re the one that works in Congress … You are scrapping right now!”
“We do not intend to go ahead like this,” the moderator, Stuart Varney, said, before sending us all, mercifully, to a commercial break.
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Ron DeSantis was asked about curriculum in Florida that said, enslaved people “develop skills which in some instances, could be apply for their personal benefit”.
DeSantis called this “a hoax that was perpetrated by Kamala Harris”, mispronouncing the vice-president’s name. In fact, the quoted bit is taken straight from Florida’s African American history standards.
In an impassioned speech reacting to the standard, Harris said: “They insult us in an attempt to gaslight us and we will not stand for it.”
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Ron DeSantis just won himself some applause with a well-timed interjection to tout his accomplishments as Florida governor.
Amid bickering over government spending between Nikki Haley and Tim Scott, DeSantis piped up.
“I’m the only one up here who’s gotten in the big fights and has delivered big victories for the people of Florida. And that’s what it’s all about,” DeSantis said to cheers.
“You can always talk but when when it gets hot in there, when they’re shooting arrows at you, are you going to stand up for parents rights, keep the state free? Are you going to be able to do all those things? And in the state of Florida because of our success, the Democratic party lies in ruins. We have won the big fights. We have turned our state into a Republican state.”
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Doug Burgum really wants to answer these questions, but the moderators aren’t having it.
They asked Nikki Haley elaborate on her energy policies – but not Burgum. “As the only leader of an energy state, can I answer?” interjected Burgum, whose state has a sizable oil industry. But the answer the North Dakota governor got was no.
He tried again after Ron DeSantis was asked the same question, but was rebuffed. “We can’t talk over each other. We must respect each other,” moderator Stuart Varney insisted.
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Fact check: Republicans on trans healthcare
As candidates address trans rights on stage, here’s a bit of context.
Vivek Ramaswamy said: “Transgenderism, especially in kids is a mental health disorder.”
This is false. Major medical organizations, like the American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association (APA), say being transgender is not a mental disorder. Gender dysphoria is recognized as a medical condition that doctors agree should be remedied by offering gender-affirming treatment.
From Mike Pence: “The Linn-Marr community schools in Iowa had a policy where you could you had to have a permission slip from your parents to get a Tylenol but you could get a gender transition plan without notifying your parents.”
This is misleading. Linn-Marr’s policy directed educators to use students’ chosen names, without consulting with parents. That’s a far reach from a “gender transition plan”. Children under 17 seeking gender affirming care such as hormone replacement therapy or gender affirming surgery.
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Haley to Ramaswamy: 'Every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber'
Vivek Ramaswamy was the most pilloried candidate at the previous debate, and will likely win that dubious distinction after this debate.
He recently joined TikTok, the controversial social media app many GOP candidates want to ban over allegations that it’s tied to the Chinese Communist party. Asked why he was on the app, Ramamswamy cited its popularity with young people, and said: “The answer is, I have a radical idea for the Republican party. We need to win elections, and part of how we win elections is reaching the next generation of young Americans where they are.”
Nikki Haley did not like that response. “Honestly, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber for what you say,” she said, before going on to outline a number of privacy and national security concerns about the app.
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Mike Pence wants to “repeal the Green New Deal”. Too bad it’s never passed Congress or been signed into law…
“Joe Biden’s Green New Deal agenda is good for Beijing and bad for Detroit. We ought to repeal the Green New Deal,” the former vice president said. “We ought to repeal the Green New Deal.”
The Green New Deal is a climate legislation proposal that was never passed. Joe Biden did sign into law the Inflation Reduction Act, which includes key climate provisions is different.
Although the IRA includes major investments in clean energy technologies – some of which have relied on critical minerals controlled by China. But the landmark climate investment is also considered a key step in reducing reliance on China for these minerals by increasing domestic supply. And while ramping up domestic extraction has raised new environmental concerns, Pence’s assertion is notably misleading.
The IRA’s tax credits for electric vehicles, for example, come with the caveat that the materials used to manufacture the veible come from the US or countries with which the US has free trade agreements. The law also incentivizes domestic manufacturing.
Doug Burgum did it again.
The moderators didn’t call on him for a contentious question about social media app TikTok, so he just started talking, keeping the moderators from moving on to Ron DeSantis.
“We will have to cut your mic and I don’t want to do that,” warned moderator Dana Perino. Burgum piped down.
Mike Pence discusses his marriage — for better or worse
Raise your hand if you expected Mike Pence to discuss his sex life at this debate.
Us neither. But discuss it he did. Chris Christie laid the groundwork while responding to a question about how he would close educational gaps with minorities, which he turned into an attack on teachers unions.
“This public school system is no longer run by the public. It is run by the teachers unions in this country,” Christie said. “And when you have the president of the United States sleeping with a member of the teachers union, there is no chance that you could take the stranglehold away from the teachers unions.” That line was a reference to Jill Biden, who has taught at community colleges and is a union member.
It got weird when the moderators, a few minutes later, called on Mike Pence. “By way of full disclosure, Chris, you’ve mentioned the president’s situation,” Pence said. “My wife isn’t a member of the teachers union, but I gotta admit I’ve been sleeping with a teacher for 38 years.” OK Mike.
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Fact check: Republicans claim crime is rife – but murder rate down
The Guardian’s Lois Beckett, who has extensively covered gun violence, offers this context on the candidate’s rhetoric on crime …
As Republicans talk about fears of crime and crime overrunning our cities, it’s worth noting that the best data we have so far suggests that, after an increase in killings during the early pandemic, the number of murders across the country fell substantially last year, and that, as crime analyst Jeff Asher has noted, murders appear to be falling even more this year.
The 2023 drop in murders began early in the year, when Asher’s analysis of early data suggested that “United States may be experiencing one of the largest annual percent changes in murder ever recorded.”
Murder fell 5.1% last year for the 29 states with FBI data already available. @Crimealytics: https://t.co/VqJC736K5L pic.twitter.com/MUkPQHYK6e
— Matt Cravens (@mattcravens) September 22, 2023
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Fact check: claims death penalty threat would deter mass shootings
Would the the threat of the death penalty deter people from committing mass shootings? Lois Beckett offers some context …
Mike Pence volunteered his plan for preventing the toll mass shootings in the United States: “A federal expedited death penalty for anyone involved in a mass shooting.” He said he was disgusted that the teenager who committed the Parkland school shooting did not get a death sentence.
According to the Violence Project, “Seventy-two per cent of mass shooters were suicidal either before or at the time of the shooting.”
Data from the FBI on active shooter incidents in 2021 and 2022 also showed that a third to nearly a half of perpetrators of these shootings either died by suicide or were killed by police or other citizens during the attack.
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Ilia Calderón wanted Ron DeSantis to explain Florida’s controversial school curriculum that teaches students slaves learned some useful skills from their bondage.
As DeSantis launched into his response, Tim Scott, the lone major Republican contender who is Black, could be heard saying: “Take the line out. Just take the line out.”
DeSantis then said:
First of all, that’s a hoax that was perpetrated by Kamala Harris … second of all, that was written by descendants of slaves. These are great Black history scholars. So we need to stop playing these games.
Scott was then asked to elaborate on his objections.
“There is not a redeeming quality in slavery. He and Kamala should have just taken the one sentence out. America has suffered because of slavery. But we’ve overcome that. We are the greatest nation on Earth because we faced our demons in the mirror and made a decision,” the senator said.
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The debate started with questions about Americans’ sentiments about the economy. Dominic Rushe unpacked this in our new series called Confidence Crisis, which is examining why consumers feel frustrated by finances, even as the data shows a relatively strong picture:
The US has roared back from the Covid recession by official measures. But two-thirds of Americans are unhappy about the economy despite consistent reports that inflation is easing and unemployment is close to a 50-year low. And the poll suggests many are unaware of or don’t believe the positive economic news the government has reported.
The results illustrate a dramatic political split on economic views – with Republicans far more pessimistic than Democrats. But unhappiness about the economy is widespread.
Two-thirds of respondents (68%) reported it’s difficult to be happy about positive economic news when they feel financially squeezed each month (Republicans: 69%, Democrats: 68%).
Two-thirds of Americans (65%) believe that the economy is worse than the media makes it out to be rather than better (35%).
In August the unemployment rate was 3.8%, close to a 50-year low. But the poll found that 51% wrongly believe that unemployment is nearing a 50-year high rather than those who believe it’s actually low (49%).
Tonights’ GOP presidential hopefuls are debating at stage not far from Ronald Reagan’s actual grave, which is outside the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation overlooking the Pacific.
Tonight’s GOP debate is taking place not far from Ronald Reagan’s grave, which is at the Reagan library, with a view overlooking the Pacific. pic.twitter.com/urjXerK35S
— Lois Beckett (@loisbeckett) September 28, 2023
(At the moment, it’s right next to the large overflow tent where journalists are watching the debate.)
As The Guardian’s David Smith wrote earlier, Regan’s legacy looms large over this current debate. And it’s not clear how happy Reagan would be with this current version of the Republican party.
Debate lapses into occasional chaos as candidates jostle for airtime
The debate thus far has occasionally lapsed into chaos as candidates jostle for airtime.
An early interrupter was North Dakota governor Doug Burgum, who is way down in the polls and clamored to answer questions in instances the moderators passed him over.
But the kings of cross-talk thus far are Tim Scott and Vivek Ramaswamy who, as the below clip shows, paralyzed the debate for about two minutes by refusing to individually shut up:
Republican presidential candidates Tim Scott and Vivek Ramaswamy talk over each other for almost two whole minutes.
— The Recount (@therecount) September 28, 2023
A telling accidental line by Ramaswamy: “Thank you for speaking while I'm interrupting.” pic.twitter.com/AJ42OMWtwo
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Mike Pence had a unique proposal to curb mass shootings in the US.
“I am sick and tired of these mass shootings happening in the United States of America, and if I’m president of the United States, I’m going to go to the Congress of the United States, and we’re going to pass a federal expedited death penalty for anyone involved in a mass shooting so that they do meet their fate in months, not years,” the former vice-president said.
He cited the case of Nikolas Cruz, who killed 17 people in the Parkland school shooting in Florida, but who a jury decided should be sentenced to life in prison.
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The topic is now fentanyl, a serious public health crisis, where Republican candidates are competing with each other for whose response is more extreme and militaristic.
Vivek Ramaswamy said we “have to seal that southern border. Building the wall is not enough. They’re building cartel-financed tunnels underneath that wall, semitrucks can drive through them. We have to use our own military to seal the Swiss cheese at the southern border.”
Ron DeSantis called for using “the US military to go after the Mexican drug cartels. They are killing our people.”
The Florida governor vowed that “this border is going to be a day one issue for me as president. We’re going to declare a national emergency, yes, we’ll build the wall, we’ll do remain in Mexico.” The latter is a controversial policy that forces asylum seekers to stay in Mexico while waiting for their claims to be processed.
Writing from Simi Valley, the Guardians’s Lois Beckett, who spent the last few months covering Hollywood’s historic double strike, notes that the candidates were quick to dismiss the unions’ actual reasons for striking…
There’s been a lot of talking over each other so far this debate. But it’s fascinating to hear GOP candidates immediately jump in to contest the claims of “union leaders” and offer their own explanations for why workers across industries, from actors and screenwriters to autoworkers, have been going on strike.
Different candidates offered their own spin on the same explanation: the problem is Biden, and Bidenomics, not any more systematic problems with America’s economic system.
Mike Pence started this off: “While the union bosses are talking about class warfare and talking about disparities in wages, I really believe what’s driving that is Bidenomics have failed,” the former president said.
Nikki Haley blamed Biden’s spending policies for causing inflation. North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum, a little-known candidate, appeared to blame subsidies for electric cars for the auto worker strike.
Interested to hear back from workers on the picket lines about what they think about GOP presidential candidates blaming Biden for their situations.
'We're gonna call you Donald Duck': Christie says Trump too scared to attend
Chris Christie turned a question about crime fighting into an attack on Donald Trump, the frontrunner for the Republican nomination who has snubbed this debate.
“And I want to look at a camera right now to tell you, Donald, I know you’re watching. You can’t help yourself. I know you’re watching, OK,” the former New Jersey governor said.
“And you’re not here tonight. Not because of polls, and not because of your indictments. You’re not here tonight because you’re afraid of being on the stage and defending your record. You’re ducking these things. And let me tell you what’s going to happen. You keep doing that, no one up here is gonna call you Donald Trump any more. We’re gonna call you Donald Duck.”
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Mike Pence turned a question about how he would handle the issue of Dreamers, as undocumented people who were brought the United States are minors are called, into an opportunity to attack Ron DeSantis and tout his economic proposals.
“You know, Ron, you talk a really good game about cutting spending, but you’ve increased spending in Florida by 30%. When I was a member of Congress in 2006, right after Hurricane Katrina, you remember it. We stood our ground. I led house conservatives, we cut $100 billion out of the federal budget,” Pence said.
“It can be done but as I said in the last debate, I’ll say again, this is no time for on the job training. I’m going to be ready on day one.”
Vivek Ramaswamy, who was born in the US to two non-citizen parents, gaining his citizenship and right to become US president via birthright citizenship, is an ardent supporter of ending birthright citizenship.
“Militarize the southern border, stop funding sanctuary cities and end foreign aid to Mexico and Central America to end the incentives to come across. But I do go a step further,” Ramaswamy said. “ favor ending birthright citizenship for the kids of illegal immigrants in this country.”
Ramaswamy was confident that stripping birthright citizenship from the children of undocumented immigrants wouldn’t be an issue, but legal scholars disagree. Here’s University of Chicago law School’s Aziz Huq discussing why Donald Trump’s proposal to end birthright citizenship was problematic. Here’s another analysis by Georgia College & State University’s Nicholas Creel.
Univision’s Ilia Calderón wanted to hear more from Vivek Ramaswamy on his call to deport all undocumented immigrants, including their children born in the US, and who are therefore citizens.
Ramaswamy’s immigration policy is an outlier for its extremity, and on the debate stage, he made clear he was not backing down:
The Republicans on the stage are on the right side of this issue: militarize the southern border, stop funding sanctuary cities and end foreign aid to Mexico and Central America to end the incentives to come across. But I do go a step further, you’re right about that Ilia. I favor ending birthright citizenship for the kids of illegal immigrants in this country.
Now the left will howl about the Constitution and the 14th amendment. The difference between me and them is I’ve actually read the 14th amendment. What it says is that all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the laws and jurisdiction thereof are citizens. So nobody believes that the kid of a Mexican diplomat in this country enjoys birthright citizenship – not a judge or legal scholar in this country will disagree with me on that. Well, if the kid of a Mexican diplomat doesn’t enjoy birthright citizenship, then neither does the kid of an illegal migrant who broke the law to come here.
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Tim Scott, who was the first to speak tonight on the question of whether striking autoworkers should be fired, actually had a labor complaint filed against him for suggesting that strikers be made redundant.
Shawn Fain, the president of UAW, filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board after Scott suggested that auto workers on strike should be fired. At a recent event, Scott said: “I think Ronald Reagan gave us a great example when federal employees decided they were going to strike. He said, you strike, you’re fired. Simple concept to me ... To the extent that we can use that once again, absolutely.”
Tonight, Scott said the government couldn’t fire workers – before swiftly transitioning to a discussion about the US border policy.
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Christie attacks Trump for skipping debate
Citing a comment from Mike Pence who blamed politicians like Vivek Ramaswamy for dysfunction in the GOP, Univision’s Ilia Calderón asked Chris Christie: “If the government shuts down, should voters blame populist Republicans?”
Christie was a prolific hurler of insults in the last debate, but he didn’t take the bait here. “Everybody who’s in Washington DC, they get sent down there to do the job and they’ve been failing at doing the job for a very long time,” Christie replied, faulting the Biden administration and the Trump administration for increasing the national debt and, in turn, increasing inflation. He went on to criticize Joe Biden for hiding “in his basement”, while Donald Trump “hides behind the walls of his golf clubs”.
“He should be in this room to answer those questions for the people you talked about who are suffering,” said Christie, one of the few open Trump critics onstage.
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Ramaswamy, again, calls to 'drill, frack, burn coal'
Vivek Ramaswamy was up next for his thoughts on the United Auto Workers strike, and reiterated a call for the aggressive expansion of polluting energy sources that he’d made in the previous debate.
“If I was giving advice to those workers, I would say go picket in front of the White House in Washington DC, that’s really where the protest needs to be,” Ramaswamy said.
He continued:
What we need is to deliver economic growth in this country. Unlock American energy, drill, frack, burn coal, embrace nuclear energy, put people back to work by no longer paying them more money to stay at home, stabilize the US dollar itself and rescind a majority of those unconstitutional federal regulations that are hampering our economy. That is how we unleash American exceptionalism. And that’s not a Democratic vision or a Republican vision, that is an American vision.
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The debate’s first question is to Tim Scott, who is asked if he would fire striking autoworkers.
“Obviously, the president of United States cannot fire anybody in the private sector,” said Scott, showing a keen understanding of what the president can and cannot do. He then criticized the United Auto Workers demands, before shifting to a tried and true subject for Republicans: border security:
Joe Biden should not be on the picket line, he should be on the southern border, working to close our southern border because it is unsafe, wide open and insecure, leading to the deaths of 70,000 Americans in the last 12 months because of fentanyl. It is devastating. Every county in America is now a border county because fentanyl has devastated Americans in every single state.
The debate’s moderators have started by introducing the candidates and themselves.
Onstage is South Carolina senator Tim Scott, former New Jersey governor Chris Christie, Florida governor Ron DeSantis, North Dakota governor Doug Burgum, former UN ambassador Nikki Haley, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy and former vice-president Mike Pence.
Moderating the debate is Fox Business Network’s Stuart Varney, Fox News’s Dana Perino and Univision’s Ilia Calderón.
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David Smith, who is at the debate in Simi Valley, writes:
Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, has been holding court in the debate “spin room”, looking very much like a man trying not to look like he is running for president.
“I was asked by the vice-president and president of the United States to make a case for the Biden record,” he told reporters by way of explaining his presence.
“The winner of tonight’s debate is clear. It’s Joe Biden and it’s the Biden presidency and the extraordinary job he’s done in the last few years to take unemployment that was 14.7% down to 3.8%. To take inflation, a global phenomenon, from 9.1 to 3.7%.”
Newsom exchanged warm greetings with Fox News host Sean Hannity, who will next month moderate a debate between the California governor and the Florida governor, Ron DeSantis.
Newsom told the media: “Ron DeSantis is running for president of United States and he wants to, in the middle of his presidential campaign, debate a governor of California. Think about it: it’s disqualifying. You can goat someone this easy? Can you imagine with Kim Jong-un?”
And he said of the looming government shutdown: “It’s like three blind mice. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Gaettz, McCarthy are walking us off a cliff. I mean, it’s student government. In nearly 30 years there’s been five shutdowns. They have one thing in common: five Republican speakers.”
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Republican candidates take stage for second presidential debate
The seven Republicans who have qualified for the second debate of the 2024 presidential primary are now on stage at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California.
The debating should start in a few minutes, and we’ll follow it live here.
In Michigan, meanwhile, Donald Trump is trying to position himself as an ally to striking blue-collar auto workers – against the cries of union leaders who have said a second term for the former president would be a “disaster”.
The United Auto Workers have witheld an endorsement in the presidential race, but leaders have repeatedly questioned Trump’s record. Tonight, he’ll be speaking at Drake Enterprises in Clinton Township, north of Detroit, a nonunion shop.
“I find a pathetic irony that the former president is going to hold a rally for union members at a nonunion business,” said Shawn Fain, the president of the UAW.
CNN’s @WolfBlitzer talks to United Auto Workers President Shawn Fain about former President Donald Trump’s planned trip to Michigan and if he would be willing to meet with Trump. Hear his response on @CNNSitRoom. pic.twitter.com/SHPVRsu8L2
— CNN (@CNN) September 26, 2023
Fain said he wouldn’t meet with Trump during he visit.
Trump claimed there were thousands at the rally, though there appeared to be a few hundred in the crowd. Several of those who spoke with The Guardian said they are small business owners, or work for small businesses.
“That’s the thing – there are people who are union, but there’s also a whole bunch of us who are not and who work for small businesses, and we are more pro-Trump,” said Laura D, who lives in nearby Mt Clemens.
Tom Perkins contributed reporting
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From August, here’s the Guardian’s Mary Yang with a look at where the Republican candidates stand on the issues. They probably haven’t changed their minds much since then:
Republicans vying for the 2024 party nomination are set to take the stage in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on Wednesday night for the first debate of the primary season.
The candidates will certainly throw punches at each other and at Donald Trump, who has a significant lead in polls but is skipping the debate. But it’s also a chance for each candidate to present their policy agenda and voice their stance on key voter issues such as abortion and aid to Ukraine.
Here’s where each candidate in Wednesday’s debate stands on issues such as abortion, immigration, the economy and continued aid to Ukraine.
One presidential candidate you can expect to hear plenty from tonight, and about, is Vivek Ramaswamy. He took the stage in Milwaukee last month with the kind of no-compromises, no-concerns rhetoric that was straight out of the Trump playbook, and was in turn jumped on by pretty much everyone else on stage, who called him too inexperienced for the White House. Here’s the Guardian’s Martin Pengelly with a look back at his inaugural debate appearance:
Vivek Ramaswamy, the 38-year-old biotech entrepreneur running third in Republican polling, emerged in the absence of Donald Trump as a surprise focus of the first debate of the Republican primary, showing scant respect for other candidates and drawing heavy fire in return.
“We live in a dark moment,” Ramaswamy declaimed, in the distinctly Trumpian and conspiratorial fashion that has become a hallmark of his campaign.
Ramaswamy’s bid for the Republican nomination has been hit by recent scandals over remarks that suggested sympathy for conspiracy theories around the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the January 6 assault on the Capitol. But he has sought to portray himself as a Trump-like outsider taking on the establishment with his extreme views.
All the other presidential candidates onstage in Milwaukee, Ramaswamy repeatedly said, were “bought and paid for” by donors.
After all eight candidates declined to raise their hands when asked if they believed human behavior was causing the climate crisis, Ramaswamy jumped in, stridently rapping out: “Unlock American energy, drill, frack, burn coal, embrace nuclear.”
First debate recap: lots of squabbling, no breakthroughs
About a month ago, Republican presidential candidates gathered in Milwaukee for the first debate of the presidential cycle. Donald Trump opted to skip it, and the lineup of candidates was almost the same as it will be this evening. The lone candidate who qualified for the first debate but failed to make it to the second is the Arkansas governo,r Asa Hutchinson, whose low name recognition and steadfast opposition to Trump has few takers in the GOP.
The first parley of GOP candidates was characterized by a cross-fire squabbling and insults, much of it directed at Vivek Ramaswamy, the entrepreneur whose lack of political experience was seized on by the veterans of various elected offices onstage. Meanwhile, none of the eight candidates had the sort of breakthrough moment that represents the best-case scenario for a presidential debate appearance. If anything, the contours of the Republican primary were largely the same after the debate as they were before it: Trump remains the frontrunner in polls, and all the other candidates are essentially fighting for scraps. If there was a big loser, you might say it was Florida’s governor, Ron DeSantis, who at the start of the year looked like he’d run a strong challenge to Trump, but whose support has markedly flagged in recent polls.
Here’s more from the Guardian’s David Smith on what we learned from the first Republican presidential debate:
The winners of the first Republican presidential primary debate are … Joe Biden and Donald Trump.
Eight candidates who took the stage in Milwaukee tore pieces out of each other while failing to distinguish themselves. They revealed a party of chaos and discord that has veered right of the mainstream on issues such as abortion, education, immigration and the climate crisis. It was a two-hour campaign ad for the Democrats broadcast by Fox News.
The Republican contenders also failed to dent Trump who, with a huge lead in opinion polls, skipped the event in favour of a prerecorded interview with the former Fox News host Tucker Carlson. He told Carlson he did not feel like being on stage to be “harassed by people that shouldn’t even be running for president” – a decision that he will now feel was vindicated.
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Tom Perkins writes from Michigan:
The Republican frontrunner won’t on the debate stage tonight.
Instead, Donald Trump is an industrial park in Clinton Township, Michigan, preparing to make remarks at an auto supply shop
Hundreds of supporters lining the street erupted in cheers moments ago as the former president’s motorcade pulled in. Trump’s address today comes after Joe Biden joined striking United Auto Workers on the picket line in Wayne, Michigan yesterday.
The gathering has all the festive and sometimes surreal energy often part of Trump rallies. In one spot, supporters bang on drums, breaking to yell “Freedom!”, and drawing loud cheers from up and down the street. Many are draped in Trump 2024 fags, another flag shows Trump as a Rambo-life figure holding a grenade launcher. Another declares “My governor is an idiot”, a reference to Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer.
Trump has positioned himself as the champion of workers and unions, and Ed Sands, a 73-year-old retired auto supplier employee, buys it: Trump is “the only one who gives a shit about working people,” he said.
“Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Obama – they were all terrible for Macomb County, jobs went to China, south, and you see all these people here today because Trump will bring them back,” Sands added.
The former president’s return to office is all but guaranteed, Sands said. “Look around you, look at these people. Do you think he is going to lose? Do you?”
Christopher Demopolis, 35, who works in heating and cooling, echoed that sentiment, and said his UAW base will play a role.
“I don’t see why he won’t Michigan next time around – a lot of this is going to determine it,” he said, motioning to the lively crowd. “Trump supports the workers, Biden supports the leaders.”
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Ronald Reagan is a Republican icon, and his presidential library will play host to tonight’s debate. But as the Guardian’s David Smith reports, it is unlikely the late former president would think much of the direction his party has recently taken:
Tourists posed for photos beside the presidential seal, peered inside the cockpit, studied the nuclear football and gazed at a desk where a “Ronald Reagan” jacket slung over the chair, page of handwritten notes and jelly bean jar made it appear as if the 40th US president could saunter back at any moment.
Air Force One is the star attraction at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and Museum in Simi Valley, California. But on Wednesday it is competing for attention with a curving Starship Enterprise-style stage set featuring seven lecterns and microphones for the second Republican presidential primary debate.
The Reagan library describes this as “the Super Bowl” of Republican debates, against the dramatic backdrop of the Boeing 707 that flew seven presidents and close to the granite gravesite where Reagan was buried in 2004, looking across a majestic valley towards the Pacific Ocean.
“As a new field of Republicans make their case to be the next President, the legacy of Ronald Reagan looms larger than ever,” the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and Institute, which sustains the library, said in an email statement that will be put to the test at 9pm ET. For there are some who argue that Reagan would no longer recognise a Republican party that now belongs to Donald Trump.
How to watch the debate
Tonight’s debate at the Ronald Regan presidential library in Simi Valley, California begins at 9pm eastern time, and will be broadcast on Fox News and Fox Business Network. For Spanish-language viewers, it will be carried on Univision, according to the Associated Press.
It’s expected to last two hours, and will be moderated by Fox Business Network’s Stuart Varney, Fox News’s Dana Perino and Univision’s Ilia Calderón.
And will, of course, be covering it live on this blog.
Where's Trump?
Donald Trump is skipping the second debate to visit Detroit auto workers instead.
He will attempt to position himself as an ally of working-class voters in Michigan – a Democratic-leaning swing state he carried in his upset 2016 election victory – by promising to raise wages and protect jobs if returned to the White House.
The former president is the clear frontrunner for the GOP’s presidential nomination and will at 8pm eastern time, just before the debate starts, speak before a crowd of current and former United Auto Workers (UAW) members at Drake Enterprises, a nonunion manufacturer in Clinton Township, about a half-hour outside Detroit.
A Trump campaign radio ad released last week and airing in Detroit and Toledo, Ohio, praised autoworkers, and said the former president has “always had their back”.
This is the second debate in a row Trump has skipped. Rather than attend the inaugural GOP debate in Milwaukee, Trump gave an interview to conservative commentator Tucker Carlson, which was posted on X, the social network owned by billionaire Elon Musk and formerly known as Twitter.
Who qualified for the second Republican debate?
Seven candidates have qualified for the second Republican primary debate but former Arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson did not make the cut this time.
Taking part this time are Florida governor Ron DeSantis, South Carolina senator Tim Scott, former vice-president Mike Pence, former UN envoy Nikki Haley, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, former New Jersey governor Chris Christie and Doug Burgum.
Candidates needed at least 3% support in two national polls or 3% in one national poll and two polls from Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada or South Carolina – all early-voting states.
The candidates also need at least 50,000 unique donors (200 of those need to come from 20 states or territories) and they had to sign a pledge promising to support the eventual nominee.
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Republicans — but not Trump — to duke it out in second debate of presidential primary
Good evening, US politics blog readers, and thanks for joining us as the Guardian’s Maanvi Singh and I cover the second debate of Republican presidential candidates. This evening’s face-off takes place at the Ronald Reagan presidential library in Simi Valley, California, but if you know only one thing about this debate, know this: Donald Trump, who polls show has an overwhelming lead in the race for the GOP nomination, will not attend. The debate stage will instead feature seven candidates, including Florida’s governor Ron DeSantis, Trump’s former UN ambassador Nikki Haley, his ex-vice-president Mike Pence and South Carolina’s senator Tim Scott. We’ll tell you more about who else is there, and what Trump is doing instead, a little later.
That said, there’s still plenty of news to be made at this debate. Here’s what we’ll be watching for:
The federal government is on the cusp of shutting down for the 11th time since 1980 due to a protracted dispute over spending among Republicans, mostly in the House. Will the candidates take sides in the spending battle? And if so, will they support speaker Kevin McCarthy and his attempts to placate all wings of his party, or the insurgent Republicans who disputes over spending, border security and parliamentary tactics may soon grind much of the government to a halt?
Trump has warned his fellow Republicans against stringent abortion bans that keep the procedure off limits in cases of rape, incest or health complications. Will the candidates join his call, or back hardline restrictions – perhaps even a federal ban?
Joe Biden is the target of an impeachment inquiry launched by House Republicans, even though some of their own lawmakers don’t think there’s enough of a case against the president. Do the candidates agree, or do they think House Republicans should press on, even though Democrats’ control of the Senate means there’s practically no chance Biden will be removed from office?
