Willie Jackson warned his Labour colleagues the Māori caucus would bear the brunt of the vitriol if the party didn’t keep a firm grip on the co-governance debate. He spoke to political editor Jo Moir in Waitangi about the “terrible” abuse Nanaia Mahuta, a Māori wahine politician, has suffered as a result.
Māori Development Minister Willie Jackson says the ship’s sailed on explaining co-governance to the public, which is why it needs to be reframed in a way it can be understood.
“David Seymour and Christopher Luxon have successfully transitioned a section of the New Zealand public into thinking that it is all part of a Māori take-over,” he told Newsroom in an interview at Waitangi.
“We have to reframe it, and we’re looking at possibilities… it’s just become so tainted.”
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Cabinet’s discussions around how to re-pitch co-governance to the public in an election year will take place over the next few weeks, Jackson said, and the Māori caucus is meeting in the coming week to talk about some of the potential solutions.
Jackson is one of the ministers fronting the debate through the work he has been doing on the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which has now been parked until after the election. He says he has done his best to try explain why a co-governance partnership is needed.
“I think I always tried to explain it, and with respect I’ve done my best.
“I always warned and said it’s going to be picked up by the other side who will say, oh look Jackson and them are going to try pull in all this co-governance stuff."
Nanaia Mahuta was the minister in charge of Three Waters until the reshuffle last week, when she lost the local government portfolio.
The co-governance aspects of waters services reform has ignited more uncertainty and fear around preferential treatment for Māori and a separatist agenda than any other policy.
Jackson says the pressure on Mahuta in the past 12 months has been huge.
“That’s the nature of politics – [Nanaia Mahuta's] story isn’t that dissimilar to Jacinda’s in terms of the type of abuse she’s had.” - Māori Development Minister Willie Jackson
“She’s been at the forefront in terms of change for Māori, not just Three Waters, but the Māori seats as well.”
“The reality is the pressure’s huge, and you can only take so much.
“People might think with the reshuffle there’s been some sort of stripping or whatever; I don’t see it that way at all and I don’t think Nanaia does either.
“That’s the nature of politics – her story isn’t that dissimilar to Jacinda’s in terms of the type of abuse she’s had.”
Jackson describes the Foreign Affairs Minister as an “incredibly resilient woman”, and someone he marvels at.
“We’re not that dissimilar in terms of our views for our people, but the type of hammering she has got would take a toll on anyone and I think at the same time women politicians get it worse.”
“It’s tough, you look at all the rubbish Jacinda’s had to go through – all that Cindy crap – that sort of always putting her down. Then Nanaia has had to put up with the racist stuff, the analogies with monkeys and that sort of stuff.
“It’s terrible and it’s harder for women,” he tells Newsroom.
“So, for people to read this [reshuffle] as being a humiliation, I don’t think so. She’s been in politics a long time; she needed some relief and her love is foreign affairs.
“She’s still Associate Minister for Māori Development and she’s going to drive our Māori tourism stuff and she’s a huge leader of our Māori caucus and always will be.”
In Jackson’s earlier political days with the Alliance Party, he used to run an aggressive campaign in the Tainui seat held by Mahuta.
“She’s tough, I’ve known her longer than most people. We weren’t exactly best friends you know, we used to go at each other’s throats like you wouldn’t believe. We were bloody enemies if truth be known.
“But outside of that there was always respect and in the last five years she and I have come close together,” Jackson said.
Three Waters debate
Mahuta’s time as Local Government Minister this term will be remembered for the debate on whether there should be a co-governance element to Three Waters, and the entrenchment clause fiasco with the Green Party.
Some commentators have speculated co-governance will have to be taken out of Three Waters altogether if it is to survive, but Jackson disagrees.
“The infrastructure is important, but partnership can’t be walked away from, so we’re looking at that.”
“You heard the iwi leaders on Friday. We can’t betray our people in terms of throwing them under the bus, but I’ve asked them to have a pragmatic look at things and we’ll work in tandem with them."
“The iwi perspective is one perspective and it’s important, but it’s not the be-all and end-all.” - Willie Jackson
A sure way Māori will get “thrown under the bus, crushed and killed” is under a National-ACT government, Jackson says.
“What we’ve already got in place is all the frameworks and set-ups that we used to dream about. But this is politics in 2023 and race is high on the Seymour-Winston Peters-Luxon agenda, so for us we must relook at things in terms of what’s working and what’s not.”
Jackson’s message to iwi leaders is to “work with us or you work against us”.
“They’re going to have to trust people like myself, Kelvin Davis, and Nanaia to navigate this.”
Still, Jackson doesn’t believe getting iwi leaders on side is as important as some make out.
“The iwi perspective is one perspective and it’s important, but it’s not the be-all and end-all.”
Jackson has a long-established track record of calling out iwi leaders for not being representative of all Māori and has had to tone down some of that rhetoric since being made a minister under Ardern’s government.
But he remains clear there is more than one view on co-governance and what partnership with the Crown should look like.
“I don’t live my life around whether iwi leaders say yes or no – they don’t represent me in Auckland.
“We’re represented by urban authorities and people at the coal face, and we don’t live or die on what the iwi leaders say. However, I made a decision when I became Māori Development Minister that I had to work better and closer with them,” Jackson tells Newsroom.
And while Three Waters and co-governance is important, he says it isn’t the driving issue for most Māori. That continues to be “bread and butter issues” like housing, education, health, and the economy.
Where co-governance went wrong
Jackson says he’s worked out the two areas the Government has gone wrong with explaining co-governance.
The first is the vacuum that was created because of Jackson and Mahuta being left to carry the load and second, he says, is the way co-governance has been broadened out across a number of different areas “without defining it”.
While most New Zealanders understand co-governance from a Treaty of Waitangi and rights perspective, such as the settlements negotiated with iwi, Jackson says there’s a second type – social equity co-governance – that has been misunderstood.
“That’s a bit different and no one quite knows what it is, and we haven’t explained what it is. It’s where a Māori voice is required, and it doesn’t have to be a 50/50 representation, but there might be a deficit where a Māori voice in a big Pākehā set-up would improve things.”
Jackson uses the example of a school board in Remuera where the community might notice an increase in Māori attending the school, and as a result take the opportunity to include a Māori voice on the board.
It’s not a 50/50 split, but it’s an acknowledgement that a Māori voice would improve representation overall.
Jackson says there’s nothing wrong or to fear from greater partnership, and while it’s not the only thing he will be concentrating on in the lead-up to the election, it’s something he hopes he and his Cabinet colleagues can better explain in the coming months.
