Talking Europe hosts Pascal Lamy, co-ordinator of the Jacques Delors institutes, and a distinguished former head of the World Trade Organization and former EU Trade Commissioner. We discuss great power competition in today's world; the EU’s influence when it comes to global trade and regulation; the critical importance of Africa to Europe; and climate adaptation in the light of Lamy’s role as a member of the Climate Overshoot Commission. On Brexit, an issue on which Lamy has been a prolific commentator, his advice to the British Labour party is: "keep the idea that you have divorced, for political reasons, but keep sleeping together with Europe, because that’s the way to address the economic problem."
"Europe has to exercise influence where it is united and it is united in economic and trade matters," Lamy asserts. "We have our own attitude vis-a-vis China, which is a political rivalry, but an economic interdependence. And most Europeans do not believe we should do with China what the US is doing, which is trying to isolate China. Isolating China is not the way to go. If you make China more autarkic, China will be more dangerous than what it is. So there are differences, and I think the EU has in a way to play its own game in this very complex world."
So which tools should the EU deploy, exactly? "I think what the EU should work for is to address the obstacles to trade today, which is mostly regulatory issues," Lamy answers. "What we need is a more level regulatory playing field. Regulations are about precaution. To me, that's the difference between protectionism and precautionism. Protectionism is when you protect your producers from foreign competition. Precautionism is when you protect your people from risk, for instance, environment. Now if the EU installed a carbon border adjustment at its border, in my view, this is not protectionism, this is precautionism. We have to do that if we want to green the EU economy quicker than others. So these issues are the ones ahead of us. And I think we should be much less obsessed by tariffs, which by the way are usually low now, but more attuned to dealing with regulatory discrepancies."
Turning to Africa’s importance to Europe, Lamy affirms that "long-term, let's say 50 years from now, what will happen in Africa is the most decisive parameter of the EU economic and political future, not least because of proximity. Whatever economic integration or political disintegration you have, geography still matters."
He goes on: "I think the EU has to keep trying to de-risk investments in Africa. Africa is a continent with a formidable economic potential. Lots of young Africans are really good at starting businesses. An average investor worldwide will ask for 10 percent return on equity. But in Africa he or she will ask for 15 percent. Why? Because the perception is that it's more risky. It's this 5 percent that we have to reduce in order [to have] more investments, including by the way, investments with African money. One of the paradoxes of today's Africa is that a lot of African money goes outside Africa instead of remaining invested in Africa. So de-risking Africa, I think is the way to go."
Lamy ends with some wry observations on Brexit: "I thought Brexit would be a problem. I didn't think it would be that big a problem," he says. "So this has to be fixed one way or another, and I recognise it's now very complex. But in a nutshell, my advice to my partners in the Labour Party is very simple. The strategy should be: keep the notion that you have divorced, for political reasons, but keep sleeping together, because that's the way to address the economic problem. So if you want to remain on the politics of Brexit, you say, 'we've divorced’, but if you want to reduce the cost for the UK, keep sleeping together with Europe."
Should the British public not be told about the sleeping together? "I think for some time that should be the game, while recognising that there may be paparazzi here and there," Lamy concludes.
Produced by Sophie Samaille, Perrine Desplats and Isabelle Romero
