Phillip Schofield gave a bombshell interview to the BBC which has left his fans, friends, former colleagues and biggest critics completely shocked.
Former This Morning co-star Alison Hammond even broke down in tears live on This Morning over some of his admissions.
It comes just a week after the presenter, 61, admitted to having an affair with a younger male colleague, sparking a series of bombshell accusations of a toxic work environment at ITV and an abuse of power in the workplace.
The former ITV star - who worked on This Morning for 21 years before stepping down last month amid initial rumours of a feud with Holly Willoughby - hit back at the toxic claims on his Instagram.
But Phillip has finally broken his silence over the situation with a series of shocking and explosive bombshells in interviews with the BBC and The Sun - from declaring that he is "not a groomer" and why he put a stop to the affair to his final text to Holly Willoughby.
Here is the full transcript from his interview with the BBC:
Phillip thank you for speaking to me and to the BBC, you've had quite the week how are you?
It's like a weird numbness I know that's a selfish point of view but you come to a point where you just think how much are you supposed to take. If all of those people that write all of that stuff do they ever think that there's actually a person at the other end. And so here I am.
Are feeling okay to do this? Are you feeling strong enough to do this?
Yeah I have to.
Why do you want to do this interview?
Because there is an innocent person here who didn't do anything wrong. Who is vulnerable and probably feels like I do.
A lot of my questions are going to be uncomfortable and lets face it intrusive, but you've chosen this opportunity to tell your side of the story and there are questions that your viewers all the people who supported you over the years including your family we want answers to. It's also lots of questions for ITV in all this you mentioned this young man and at the center of recent events is a young man who, together with many other cinemedia, we're not going to name and articulate of the human Rights Act he has a right to privacy and he's not here today to give his own accounts. When did you last speak to him?
As I engaged the lawyer for him. So he needed independent support and so that was the last time.
Is that a few weeks ago now?
A couple of weeks.
When you say that you engage his lawyer, do you mean you are paying for the independent legal advice that he's getting?
Phillip nods.
Okay when did you first meet this young man in question what were the circumstances?
I was invited by a friend of mine to go to a school for something I'd done thousands of times. Whether it was immediately or sometime after, he said will you will you follow him on Twitter because he's a he's a fan so I said 'yeah sure no problem'. Which I did and he probably came back saying thanks for the follow.
And he was what 15 at the time?
I follow 11,300 people and in all the time I've been on Twitter there is never been any whiff of impropriety.
So he followed you on Twitter you followed him, back did you start having a sort of email exchange or direct message exchange of any kind?
Hardly at all it was just all the way through just on an off. And then he asked if he could visit the studios work experience type of thing. I said that you come down and have a look for sure.
How old was he when he made that first said to you that he was interested in televison? Was he 18 by that point?
19.
He was 19 by then. So when he said can I come and have work experience he would be older than 19?
More or less about the same time because I organized it.
What did he ask you for? Did he ask you for work experience and you said sure come and have a look?
I've done it all my life. I'm best friends with the people who got me into television and I've always believed in in paying it forward and so that's was my you know just didn't think about it you know just did that.
When you look back now if you were to look back at those messages now is there any sense in which you were flirting with him?
[Shakes head no] No, I have been 41 years in television you know nothing like this before, you know accusations. I mean this is this is all you know accusations.
Which is why I want to put them to you now and so if you're honest now get brutally honest if you think back to those initial interactions was there any element of it which was sexual?
No.
So they'd be a period of several years when you didn't meet him?
Yeah yeah I didn't seen him.
And then when you met him in person was their little moment of sexually attraction then even?
Absolutely not, absolutely not.
Okay so to be absolutely clear how old was this young man when you first had any kind of sexual contact with him?
20.
20, I mean this is obviously the number of it and for the recorded to put speculation to rest let me ask you, did you have any kind of sexual relationship or sex with him when he was underage?
No god no. I think that is in my statement it says you know consensual relationship fully legal I mean that was approved by both sides.
When he got work experience at This Morning so he's then he's 20 years old at this stage he's someone who's come in
Well I think by that stage at 20 he had come in for a visit. We went out for, because he was going to be picked up I was worried that he might be on his own, so I said well we'll wait let's have a bite to eat. That wasn't a meal it was just a waiting for someone to pick him up so it was you know I don't worry you know don't go out there on your own and and be picked up.
So at that point you weren't in any kind of a relationship?
God no.
Right okay, how long after it after that was it that you had a beginnings of a sexual relationship with him?
He'd been working at the show for a few months and and we become mates, we were mates. We were around Studios you hang out together you know chat to each other that sort of stuff. And then my dressing room one day something happened. Which you know, obviously I will regret forever for him and for me. Mostly him. But it that happened maybe four or five times over the next few months and I know it's unforgivable but we weren't boyfriends we weren't in a relationship. I was really in a mess with my own sexuality at the time and it just happened.
How old is he at this stage?
20, 21.
And how else were you trying to help him? What else are you doing to help him with This Morning? Did you help him in terms of getting a showreel? Did you help him meet people? Because he had a lot of access.
I helped him and I think that this might have been before there had been any contact, I helped him put a showreel together.
So after he gets her experience at This Morning..
He's now got a job. So he was then given a job on his own merits because he was very good. Very good at his job. Everybody loved him and worked very very hard.
Yeah I mean it's clear from the testimony you're giving me, he is hugely talented. Just before we get into the relationship what happened after that moment in the dressing room if we go back because you're very specific in your wording in your statement about how the relationship was unwise but not illegal and the question is of legality centres around your relationship within before he was 18 just be really clear your relationship between when you met him when he was 15 and then when he was 18 was occasional direct messages no pictures of each other? sent to each other occasional direct messages and you would say that that wasn't really flirtatious at all.
Just work related, just you know career, career advice career help.
And there wasn't any sort of sexual forwardness at all in any of that stuff?
[shakes head]
Okay how long did you then have a relationship with him which was sexual in nature?
As I said it probably happened five times maybe six times nothing more than that.
So when did your relationship with him end and why?
I was at the time really in a beginning to get into a very poor mental state with my own sexuality and I thought that was bad. I think it just drifted. We still stayed mates and I got him work because obviously you know you're living in London you're struggling and he I got him runners jobs on other shows that I did because he was a very good runner and a mate and someone that you you know some of you know is always nice to have a team around you people that you that you know.
And did you ever tell Holly Willoughby?
No god no. And that's a bit a bigger question because we we have, our makeup room was like a sanctuary. Has always been a sanctuary so you tell everything in that room. Holly knows everything about me I know everything about Holly, all the team that are in there when the door is closed then that you know that's the sanctuary. And it is a wonderful wonderful environment and something that I will miss deeply. And Holly, I don't know whether Holly ever asked me, she might have done but I would have denied it. Holly did not know nobody knew and this is being the cataclysm of the lie. Is that you know a lie it starts in a denial and then the rumour came out rumour started and then you lie and they've had it you've had a workplace fling and then you lie about it and a great many people would have had a workplace fling and lie about it and I fully appreciate there is a massive age gap but that happens in life as well.
So you didn't tell anyone but I wonder if people asked you as you say they'd been rumors for years and years and years about not only whether or not you were gay but also about your relationship with this particular young man. So did anyone on the This Morning team asked you whether you were gay or in a relationship with his young man?
Nobody ever asked me about being gay.
People asked about being a relationship with this young man?
When the rumor got bigger then we were both asked.
And people would say, the circumstances are you met someone who is a child. You earn a position of power over them. You use your power eventually to give them something they craved, which is a shot, a job in the media. You nurtured a relationship, and then that relationship became sexual. And they might ask, 'What's the difference between that and grooming?'
Well, I would say that initial list of things was not right anyway.
Tell me why?
Because it was a totally innocent picture, a totally innocent Twitter follow of which I follow 11,400 people. And then it was a completely innocent backwards and forwards over a period of time about a job, about careers, you know? I mean, I do that. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with talking to someone, no matter what age they are? Does that mean that if you know if you are following anyone on Twitter, you absolutely don't talk to anybody else or you don't give advice? So, I disagree with the summation that you just gave because that does paint a very grave picture.
In which case, why do you say it was unwise? Because you're clearly sensitive to the power differential and you're clearly mindful of the dangers of abusive power.
The brief communications backwards and forwards up to the point that he came to work on This Morning, I think was just chat. What was unwise was the fact that it happened, and that was a very, very grave error. Now, it was consensual, but it was my fault.
Why?
Because I shouldn't have done it. I shouldn't have done it. It is entirely my fault. He's an innocent party here, and I appreciate, you know how, you know, there is a moment. You have a moment. There's just a moment, but he is entirely and completely innocent. Although it was consensual, I was older. I should have known better. I shouldn't have done it.
What specifically do you feel that he did that was wrong?
I kissed someone in the workplace, which led on to a little bit more, and that retrospectively, of course, you know, I think my friends have said, 'What the hell were you thinking? You don't do that. You've never done that.' And I think this, no excuse. I'm not, I don't put any, there are no excuses here. I mean, I, I have, I am, it's my fault. But excuse, I'm not, I don't put any, there are no excuses here. I mean, I, I have, I am, it's my fault. But I think the fact that perhaps I was trying to come to terms with who I was, what I was going to do about it, the effects that it would have, I think that's probably the reason.
And do you feel, just listening to how you talk about it, do you feel that what was morally wrong about it was that it involved an abusive power because you are an older guy who had more power than him?
That obviously that criticism has been levelled at me, but while I've never done that in my whole life, I've never abused my power anywhere. I'm, I'm not a bully. I don't, I mean, the things that you're supposed to be, you know, we don't, I don't lord it around TV studios. Everyone is a friend. I've gone through all of this time, the most the messages I've got from people that I work with saying, 'Oh my God, I can't believe they are saying this and you, 'We love working with you'. I don't. I snapped once when I was around, about the time that I was coming out. I snapped at one of our producers, and after the meeting, immediately got up, went up to her to apologise. It's not me. I don't do that. I'm not rude on the studio floor. I don't bully people. I don't lord it around. We're all very, very one-level team, and that's been the important thing for me in 41 years of television.
I can see how extremely concerned you are for the welfare of this young man. Did you love him?
No, we were just mates.
Do you know he has signed an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement, preventing him from speaking?
No.
You don't know?
Yeah, at the time, I was asked that earlier on. Did I make him sign an NDA? No.
I've seen there's a question whether he was, as it were, paid off. In effect, if he was paid off, was he paid for his silence?
No, God no.
Is he free to speak if he wants to?
Yeah, yes, I mean, what he wants is for all of this to go away. He wants a quiet life. He didn't want anything, any of this to happen in the first place. And I'm sure he completely regrets it. But it was my fault. So, he has nothing to regret because it was my fault.
Has there ever been or is there an injunction or any sort of NDA preventing media coverage of your relationship with him?
No, and that was one of the things when the rumor started and then it when It came to light, and obviously both of us said, 'What the hell is this?' I don't know, I don't know. I said, 'Well, it'll go away. I'm sure it'll go away.' And then it started to grow legs, and it got bigger and bigger. It was said there was a super injunction. It was said I got fired or moved on, all completely untrue. You work in television, you know the way the process works. No, you can't have someone moved on without it going through a whole team of people, the line of command. Why would this happen? I actually spoke to him the night before or texted, either the night before or the morning of I came out and said, 'I'm going to come out tomorrow.' And he said, 'Oh my God, amazing. God, that's brave. Well done. I hope it goes okay.' So, you know, he knew about it. He was never going to out me. We were still mates. And I think the time it was even written that The Sun was gonna out me. Well, they weren't A they weren't and B that's illegal. So, all of these things started to grow. It got bigger and it got bigger and it got bigger.
It's been said that The Sun had a story. They were approached, I think, November 19, 2019 by the journalist Dan Wootton who said he had the story that you had a relationship with this young man or had been in a relationship with this young man and The Sun knew about it. But there's a claim now showing. I invite you to address that. The Sun knew both things, then you. You again and then you'd had a relationship with a young man, but they decided not to do the story about you, the young man, in return for the exclusive about you coming out.
Oh God, no, no, no, no, absolutely categorically untrue. We had massive meetings about it, a secret I had a WhatsApp group called The Event, of which there were a handful of people, my management, the closest management, me, and a guy who's sort of a media lawyer type of thing trying to figure out the most elegant way to do this. And Holly and I had lunch and we're trying to figure out what was the best date. And then I was advised, when you do it, obviously, this is gonna be big news. You should really have an interview afterwards. And it was suggested to me that The Sun would be the paper to go to.
Okay, so let me put directly what Dan Wootton says that you can debunk if you wish to, Dan Wootton now works for GB News, a decision had been made for the newspaper to have a closer relationship with ITV. And as part of that closer relationship, they were offered. The Sun was offered ringside seats and an exclusive interview for this coming-out announcement. As a result, obviously, they, The Sun, wouldn't run a story about the young runner. It was prompted by Phillip.
That is categorically untrue. And I've got to say, there are a great many things that have been said that are categorically untrue. Now, I have nothing against Dan, and now I've actually brought myself down to a far greater degree than you could ever have done. I have brought myself down. I am done. I have to talk about television in the past tense, which breaks my heart. But it continues, and it is relentless, and it is day after day after day after day. And if you do that, if you don't think that is going to have the most catastrophic effect on someone's mind, what do you do? Do you want me to die? Because that's where I am. I have lost everything. My girls saved my life. They said last week, they haven't left me for a moment. They've been by my side every moment because they're scared to let me out of their sight. What is that like for daughters to have to go through something like that, and they said to me, "Don't you dare do this on our watch. We're supposed to be looking after you." And if my girls hadn't been there, I wouldn't be here because I don't see a future. And so, how much do you want a man to take? And are you truly only happy when he's dead? And this is how Caroline Flack felt, and it didn't stop. And I know I've done something wrong. I've owned up to doing something wrong. But a constant, a friend's texting me this morning, saying, "Hey, this is relentless. Like, when is it gonna stop? What's the agenda? When is this going to start?" Someone said, "You're being treated like Jack the Ripper." And I haven't looked at a single thing. That would be the final push. I have not looked at a single newspaper item, the apps. I took off all my notifications. I have not looked at my phone or looked at the news. But people, well-meaning people, come through to you and can't believe this is just been said, can't believe you've been painted out to be this person. We know you, we love you. Please love the person that we know you are, all of those things. But still, it comes. Still, it is utterly relentless, uncontrolled online.
Why is all this coming out now, Philip? What was the catalyst? What changed?
It got too big. The lie got too big for both of us. It just got enormous. It was growing and growing and growing. And it crossed over from the online to mainstream news. And that has had to stop for his mental health. It had to stop.
ITV's position is that they put one statement about all this. They say they investigate allegations of improper relationship, and they were told by both you and the young man that there was no relationship. In retrospect, was that investigation a sham? Because it clearly didn't get to the truth, did it?
I think if you have two people who are lying, then what can you do?
But what did that investigation amount to? Was it just a phone call to you and a phone call to the young man? Was it sort of independent?
I think he was asked. He was asked quite a bit. I was asked a couple of times. And so, you know, it's, and it wasn't formal. But yeah, when I, I think bearing in mind there were two people who were are absolutely intransigent in their denial. That it would have been pretty hard.
And so did you coordinate your responses together to make sure, the lies didn't get out?
No.
he lied independently. You lied independently.
It was just... it was... he didn't ever want his name out there. He just wanted it all to go away.
But some people would say something, will ask, saying, have said that it stretches credulity to suggest that people at the top of ITV wouldn't have known about your relationship with this young man. It was pretty well known that the two of you were close, and people specifically raised this with the bosses of ITV. And people say it's a quite a short journey from that to saying they should have done a proper, more thorough investigation and they should have got to the truth. Isn't it a reasonable thing for people to say, given we're talking about abusive power potentially, given we're talking about workplace culture in an era where workplace culture is under the spotlight like never before?
Yeah, yeah.
They should. Okay, yeah.
And you've been very clear about something else which you want to correct, which is, let me ask you directly, did you speak to anyone, anyone at all at ITV about moving this young man on to another program?
Absolutely, categorically not. He was a really good colleague, a runner, a very good... and so and so he applied to go to Loose Women and got the job entirely on his own merits. And I can remember him coming to me and saying, 'Mate, I'm going to Loose Women.' I said, 'That's fantastic.'
So, this suggestion that ITV moved him to solve a problem that they had festering on This Morning.
I do not believe there is any truth in that at all.
Okay, Dawn Karen McCall, I don't know if you've seen, given you turned off all the apps on your phone she's told staff at ITV there's instructions to barrister to carry out an external review of the facts following your statement and departure. Will you comply with that external review? Fast,
Yeah.
When in February 2020, ITV investigated whether you were having a relationship, they failed to get to the truth. When Dr. Ranj Singh, who's a regular guest on the show for many, many years, made a formal complaint to the bosses of ITV about toxicity on This Morning, which I know we should discuss, they appointed an external independent advisor to do a review, who found, and I quote, 'no evidence of bullying and discrimination.' What would you say to those people who say, given that record, it's quite hard to have confidence in this latest review from ITV?
I just hope that it will be thorough and I will also point out that I don't know, I, some people perhaps maybe toxic and see toxicity everywhere because that's the lens that they're looking at the world. There is no toxicity. There is no bully. There is no discrimination at This Morning.
You said, and you said in your statement on Instagram, 'There is no toxicity at This Morning.' It's clear listening to something you really, you're clearly very protective of the program that you worked on for 20 years, and understandably so because that program's reputation has taken a very severe hit. If there is no toxicity at This Morning, why would Dr. Ranj Singh have felt compelled to make a formal complaint at the highest levels of ITV about some particular individual's behavior and, as he described it, the environment at This Morning? Why would former staffers be contacting Eamonn Holmes, who I know is not running to be president of your fan club at the moment, but why would former staff have been contacting him, contacting him to say that they signed non-disclosure agreements to and I quote and I quote, 'Cover up the bullying and power abuse.' I mean, that sounds pretty toxic.
I mean, I am obviously unaware of any of that. I mean, all of that goes on elsewhere. All I see is angry people shouting about a show they're not on anymore.
So why do you think, you asked a moment ago what is it that people want to see? You lose your job. They're watching you now, suffer. Why do you think lots of people seem to have it in for you? Are you toxic to them?
God, I hope not. I know exactly. I know. I know what the issues are with two principal people who I wish, you know, I don't like toxicity.
You've said that to the best of your knowledge, the young man you got to a sexual relationship wasn't moved to Loose Women on anything other than his own merits. He was moved there because of his own. He applied and got a promotion, and that wasn't a cultural cover-up by ITV. You've also said that, to the best of your knowledge, he hasn't been paid for his silence. He has not signed a non-disclosure agreement, or there hasn't been any sort of injunction. But I guess the other allegations or accusation that made of ITV, they can respond next week. Interesting to know what you think it's not just that they just displayed poor management, but it's that they allowed a culture of toxicity to develop This Morning? But didn't do anything about it because the presenters were untouchable. It was all about keeping Holly and Phil happy.
I think it is utterly untrue from my point of view, and I think Holly would say exactly the same thing. That is utterly untrue. If there was toxicity between two members of a team that I was completely unaware of, and they had beef with one another, then that's nothing to do with us. The program that I love and the program that I left. I have never seen that from my position or heard it. In fact.
When did you last speak to Holly?
I WhatsApped her on the day that I put the statement up, and I said to her, 'I know you can't reply, you're probably not allowed to, but please know that I am so desperately, desperately sorry.'
Did she reply?
No.
How would you characterise your relationship with her now? Because it's broken.
I adore Holly, and I have always adored Holly. She's my TV sister, and from my point of view, no, I don't have a problem with Holly at all.
But what would you say to her, given that she's doubtlessing listening to you now? What would you say to her about maybe publicly that you've said privately about how you'd like to apologize and your hopes for mending that relationship?
I would say to everyone, I would say to my family, my friends, my work colleagues, the public, to ITV, to my management company, to everyone that I'd like to, I am desperately, desperately sorry. But principally, I would like to apologize to him because it may have been consensual, it may have been fully legal, but I shouldn't have allowed it to happen, and that was a grave grey error on my part. And I know that because of that, an absolutely innocent person is being persecuted.
I want to, particular point of fact, Eamonn Holmes suggested that there were taxis from your apartment to the studio, which this young man used, and that those were probably paid for by ITV. Did he frequently get taxis from your studio?
He didn't frequently come to my flat. He came to the flat once. To my recollection he didn't stay well. He said he was passing, and he was gonna come in for a beer.
So the idea that he regularly got taxes from your home..
Is utterly untrue. And also, I don't have an ITV car account. Presenters don't get that.
When you came out as gay live on This Morning, and your wife was there. As you say, they were kind. They hugged you, you hugged them. He now says he felt used. Was that all fake? That's the implication of what he's saying, that it was artificial, that day, and that he was being used for a kind of reputational enhancement for you.
You come out as gay as a reputational enhancement? I think that in itself speaks.
When did you know? When did you know you were gay?
I spoke to my therapist about this because I had a wonderful marriage, have a wonderful marriage, not brilliant right now, with an incredibly supportive wife and two beautiful children who had the most amazing time as a family. Us four, who we are, something started to trip me up. I couldn't figure out what it was. And my therapist said, 'You can become aware. You can change things. Things change.' And over a period of time, it was a cornel and it grew bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until I was really mentally struggling and deeply mentally struggling. And my relationship with my colleague coincided with that moment. That is not an excuse I am making. I make no excuses.
Do you mind me asking if that was your first gay relationship or have you had gay flings or sexual experiences before?
I think this interview is not about other experiences.
And it's obviously one of the hardest things that anyone who's gay can go through. Why did you come out when you did? You say nobody forced your hand, but why did you come out on the show?
Because it had got to the point where I weighed nine and a half stone. It was utterly torturing me. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, and I wanted to be brave. I'd spoken to my family, who have all been incredible.
Let's come to some closing thoughts. Do you feel mindful, as I am, that you are very concerned about the welfare of one particular person? Do you feel like a victim in all this?
No. I feel a victim of hate after the event. And I think I probably that there'll be a lot of people watching this thinking, 'How dare you?' It would be easier for me to say, 'I don't feel a victim.' What I feel a victim of is spun areas of non-factual information and gossip and nastiness. But I don't look anymore. I have already told you how I feel. And I'm not in television anymore.
But you lived a lie and with a lie, you live with a secret life for a long time. And they say the truth sets you free. So, for all the stress that you've been with, do you feel slightly liberated by speaking out today?
I'm glad that it's not a lie anymore. But if I could have taken the whole full brunt of this without an innocent man being hauld alongside, then fair play. But the fact that an innocent man, his friends, his family, the association is questioned, you know, everything is being questioned because you can I say anything online.
There are a lot of lies on social media. There are a lot of lies about you. But I've got to ask, there are people who'd say, given he lied and lied in the past, why should we believe in today?
Only my friends and family need to worry about that because you don't have to worry about what I say anymore to you. I just be saying that.
Have you been abandoned by a lot of people that were close to?
Um, yes, but interestingly, I have also. It's been a very fine, fine mesh of friends and it's interesting to see who came through, and it's also interesting the new friends I've made because there are a lot of people who I've never really spoken to in my world who have reached out and been amazing. And one very prominent public figure phoned me the other day and said, "I wanted to check that you were okay. I have never seen such homophobia in my life.
Why do you think this coverage has been homophobic?
So, if it was a heterosexual relationship, then you know it would have been a bit of a nudge nudge wink wink. If it's a gay relationship, then suddenly it raises eyebrows. It's wrong. It's wrong. People do find each other attractive in different age groups. It does happen, you know, but it's the mere fact that this is so gigantic, and I appreciate the workplace and the history, I get that, but it's the fact that it's... you know, it's so massive. Is predominantly homophobia.
Is this the tip of the iceberg? Are there more allegations or revelations that come? Or, as far as you're concerned..
My biggest sorry-est secret,
Where do you think your career goes from here?
No where.
What do you want to say to your... You were brandishing your wedding ring, and I'd read that you had separated. Are you?
We are separated, but we're very much together.
What would you like to say to her?
Oh, can you imagine how difficult that conversation was?
Well, perhaps this one is slightly easier. She's not here, so, you can.
I will never... I let's just say that it was an incredibly difficult conversation, the most difficult conversation I've ever had to have with her, and she is extremely disappointed because I lied to her as well, but she wished me well today. And so we'll see.
What would you say right now publicly to your daughters?
My daughters... I called them and said I have something to tell you, and they came out to see me, and were unbelievable. Unbelievable. And I looked at them and thought, "well you got that right." And they don't think you're a bully, you're toxic, and they know the man you are and they know you screwed up royalty.
And finally, what would you say to the young man in question?
I think, of to whom I am the most sorry by getting involved with me. I have caused you so much pain, and I, again, I am... I'll never forgive myself that I made a bad judgment call, and if only you knew in one moment, one moment, the judgment that I've had for 41 years, if I'd used it at that moment, then things would be very, very different for everybody.
Thank you so much for your time.
