When Grant Robertson meets his counterparts at global events, he's regularly asked about wellbeing.
Not his own wellbeing, but the wellbeing of his entire country.
"I suspect it is in the talking points," he laughs.
"There is a real interest in it."
Mr Robertson is Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's deputy and New Zealand's Finance Minister.
Among economists and those who study public policy, he's known for handing down a "wellbeing" budget in 2019, declaring the success of the economy under his stewardship would be measured by more than just traditional indicators like productivity and growth.
Underpinning the approach is a simple idea – the financial prosperity of a country alone is not an accurate enough measure of the quality of life of its citizens.
"Traditionally, budgets have looked at mainly the financial outcomes of the decisions that governments make and they're incredibly important," he told the ABC.
"But that's not the be-all and end-all."
His wellbeing budget was developed with reference to some 60 indicators of living standards and the government has five "wellbeing objectives".
They include pledges to reduce child poverty, help workers transition to a low-emissions economy, boost the physical and mental health of New Zealanders and improve outcomes for Māori people.
Mr Robertson says the goal is to "give a much richer picture about what success actually is" and make a budget more relevant to New Zealanders.
"There's a lot of numbers and charts, definitions and acronyms that go with financial management, and they don't always have huge meaning for people," he said.
"But I think [the wellbeing concept] makes it more real."
"If we don't have a population that's feeling well, healthy and happy, then they're going to be less productive."
How much has New Zealand's approach achieved?
But it is not yet clear how much of a difference the "wellbeing" budget approach has made overall.
Some measures don't appear to have moved much, while others appear to have worsened, though the COVID-19 pandemic certainly has not helped things.
"I think the way this was rolled out was a bit of a marketing gimmick," said Arthur Grimes, the former chairman of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand.
"I'm a big fan of wellbeing measurements but you need explicit targets. We did not do that so it's not quite clear what has been achieved and what has not been achieved in many areas."
"The wellbeing approach in NZ is just pretty vague. To make it work I think you need better targets."
The deputy prime minister says he doesn't agree with some of the criticism his government has faced and argues progress on difficult goals will simply take a long time to achieve.
"We've lifted about 66,000 kids out of poverty in the past few years, so we can say yes, that measure is something we've succeeded on," Mr Robertson added.
"Equally, the world can intervene and COVID came along and that's disrupted a lot of what we wanted to do".
Measuring wellbeing is not a new idea
The idea of measuring how wellbeing relates to government spending is not new or unique to New Zealand, although the country did capture a lot of headlines in 2019.
The concept has been discussed and tried in various ways, including in places like Scotland and Wales.
The Australian Treasury developed its own wellbeing framework in 2004 — though it was scrapped in 2016 — former UK prime minister David Cameron spoke about the approach when he was in power and so did former French president Nicolas Sarkozy.
"Australia was arguably a world leader in this area," Mr Grimes said.
"Every budget since at least 1900 has had a wellbeing focus. Governments spend a huge amount on things like health, education and welfare. Wellbeing is just a synonym for welfare."
Supporters of a specific wellbeing approach to government policy argue it can provide a more targeted way of addressing long-term problems in a society and ultimately be a good thing for budgets in the long run.
For example, if children are lifted out of poverty and get access to good education, it is presumed they are likely to contribute more to the economy through work, innovation and taxes later in life.
"This approach is an opportunity," said Professor Michael Mintrom from Monash University.
"It treats policies as investments."
"In terms of wellbeing for the nation as a whole, putting an emphasis on early intervention is absolutely critical."
However, opponents argue economic indicators, particularly inflation, growth and unemployment, are going to remain the biggest determiners of societal wellbeing, particularly given the global economy is facing choppy waters and the cost of living is soaring.
Australia's budget on Tuesday will have a wellbeing chapter
Australia's new treasurer, Jim Chalmers, has been interested in wellbeing budgeting for some time.
He describes Mr Robertson – a fellow Labor (Labour in New Zealand) politician — as a "great bloke" and has repeatedly spoken with him about how a similar concept could be implemented in Australia.
The Albanese government's first economic blueprint on Tuesday won't feature any explicit wellbeing goals, though they do look likely to be introduced next May.
But the budget books will contain a dedicated section to discussing what sort of measurements might work here. For example, the state of the environment or access to childcare.
"The October budget is the start of this important discussion – it explores international best practice and how we can best apply it here at home," Mr Chalmers said.
"It's critical that we measure what matters as a country, to help us track and make progress when it comes to our national priorities."
"The wellbeing budget is about how we can add to our traditional economic indicators, not replace them."
Former treasurer mocked wellbeing concept
Jim Chalmers is well aware his opponents could try to portray the focus on wellbeing as out-of-touch nonsense at a time when more families are struggling with the rising cost of food, fuel, healthcare and housing.
His predecessor, Josh Frydenberg, who lost his seat in May, notably mocked the concept of a wellbeing budget in 2020.
Speaking in Parliament, Mr Frydenberg claimed it could involve meditation mats, incense, beads and Mr Chalmers walking barefoot into the chamber.
"Hugs for all," Mr Frydenberg joked.
The Morrison government left office with an enormous amount of projected debt and the budget in structural deficit, in part due to massive spending programs aimed at getting Australia through the pandemic.
New Coalition's Treasury spokesman Angus Taylor did not mock the idea of a wellbeing budget when asked about the proposal by the ABC.
However, he argues that, given the darkening economic clouds around the globe, traditional indicators need to be the government's main focus right now.
"I think having good outcomes in health and education and mental health is enormously important but what's important for the treasurer and the budget is to focus on Australia's economic position," he said.
"It's going to be a tough Christmas for many Australians as they see interest rates going up, they see the cost of living going up."
Wellbeing can work during a crisis: NZ deputy PM
On budget night, the wellbeing concept is likely to be overshadowed by other news.
The treasurer has seemed to speak about it less in recent weeks, preferring instead to focus on inflation or talk about the "tough decisions" he needs to make to curb spending and budget waste.
But New Zealand's deputy prime minister argues wellbeing budgets can work at any time.
"Even in a time of crisis, like we've got with high inflation, the wellbeing approach helps because it helps understand which groups in the community need to be supported," Mr Robertson said.
"Inequality as an issue is now — I think — regarded by most people as an economic issue as much as a social issue."
He says he doesn't expect Australia to end up adopting the same wellbeing measurements as New Zealand, though he is pleased Mr Chalmers is looking at following in his nation's footsteps.
"Jim will make this his own, I'm absolutely sure of that," Mr Robertson said.
"But I think the underlying kind of philosophy is actually a really important one for the progress of our countries."
