In all the political drama of all the last few days you could be forgiven for not having seen a new Welsh secretary was appointed. Simon Hart, who had held the role since 2019, quit Boris Johnson's government and Robert Buckland was appointed in his place.
Sir Robert, who you can read about here, was born in Llanelli and worked as a barrister across south Wales. He was elected to represent South Swindon in 2010 and served as Solicitor General for England and Wales from 2014 to 2019, until he became prisons minister. He was appointed Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor by Boris Johnson in July 2019 but lost his job in the September 2021 reshuffle.
Since his new appointment we spoke to him about his plans, what he thinks about an M4 relief road, devolution, power grabs and his favourite place in Wales.
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He said he believes "devolution is very, very safe with this government" but ruled out any further devolution of powers. Sir Robert also said he doesn't back any attempt towards Welsh independence. He said he believes independence "leads to a decline in living standards a decline in prosperity, a decline in the position of Wales and separation is not the answer to the issues we face".
When and how were you offered the job and was it an immediate yes? How did you feel at that moment?
"As you can imagine a very unusual set of circumstances in that the day before I'd made it very clear that I wouldn't accept a job in a government led by Boris Johnson as long as he held out and refused to resign. There was a change overnight and we heard in the sort of early to mid-morning of that day that he announced his intention to resign as Prime Minister. As Simon had resigned the night before clearly a cabinet has to be formed and positions have to be filled with government as a country needs to be governed. And it was on that basis that I was able to say yes to taking on this role. I want to make sure there's a smooth transition of power and as somebody who's been a cabinet minister before and has had responsibility for the justice system in Wales and my background is very much not just born and bred, but working living in Wales for a long time, I felt suitably qualified to take up this important role.
Was it a long term ambition to take the job?
It's a huge honour to be Secretary for Wales. I didn't get up in the morning of that Thursday expecting or imagining for one minute I would be called back to serve in the cabinet. So you have to make decisions fairly promptly, but I knew and I felt that it was the right thing to do having been made that offer to serve to do my very best for the for the country that I love".
Was it a visit to Downing Street or on the telephone?
"It was a it was a telephone discussion. Then I was able to go in to my department, first of all, and then over to number 10 for cabinet that afternoon. I'm somebody who is, you know, experienced these things. I've been on the positive end of reshuffles and I've been on the negative end. I'm somebody who is experienced enough in the ways of these matters to to make a decision and to to stick with it."
So we understand that a lot of the Welsh MPs or maybe even all of the Welsh MPs were offered the job and none wanted it, is that something that bothers you? Does it bother you that you maybe weren't the first call on Mr. Johnson sheet?
"Well, I don't know where you get that information from. I think that's just speculation. As a former member of his cabinet and a senior member of the party, I took the job having been offered it and I know where those rumours come from. I frankly think they're baseless."
You're obviously not serving a Welsh constituency, how do you plan on getting to grips with the brief? How is it going to work?
"I'm the Swindon MP and as we all know, Swindon is on the train line but also the M4. My parents still live in Llanelli so I've been back and forth to Wales in a personal capacity ever since I became an MP in Swindon, and also as a minister. I've always had responsibility for Wales.
"So a solicitor general I had responsibility for devolved issues or legal issues affecting a relationship between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. And as Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary I was responsible for the prisons probation and courts and tribunals system in Wales and I spent a lot of time visiting prisons in Wales, the court system in Wales, which of course, was a reflection of my long years of professional service as a barrister in south Wales. Practising in the crown courts across the region and going to north Wales as well. And I feel that because of my work and my ministerial experience in Wales, I'm ideally suited to serve the people on Wales. I don't have to read up coming into this job, save for the immediate issues of detail obviously, that I am studying carefully and will be able to deal with in the weeks ahead."
But what are your priorities? What are the things that you want to achieve?
"My number one priority is to make sure that we carry on delivering up to levelling up the agenda. We've got to deliver it. We made huge progress with regard to the announcement of those big funds as multimillion pound funds, hundreds of millions coming to Wales. I want to make sure that we don't lose any time at all in developing those funds and making sure that they can be delivered to communities across Wales. The shared prosperity fund is worth nearly £600 million. The growth deals that cover every part of Wales are worth hundreds of millions of pounds. It's my job to make sure we know that we deliver on those pledges."
It is a source of almost constant argument between the two governments who's right and who's wrong in relation to post EU funding. There wasn't a working relationship between Mark Drakeford and Boris Johnson, there was something of one with Michael Gove but he's gone. But how are you got to rebuild that relationship?
"Well, fair question. I think I start from a strong position again, referring to my time as Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor, I had a very professional and business-like working relationship with the First Minister and indeed, other relevant Welsh Government ministers. I think that I prided myself on the cordial and business-like approach that I that I took to that I think that's something that the First Minister shares.
"I believe I can build on that relationship by making where we have common interest and we do we have a large number of common interests, we just need to work together to get on with that job. Yes, we are different political parties, there's a Conservative government in Westminster, a Labour-led administration in Cardiff, but that doesn't mean that we can't bridge any gaps when it comes to cooperation and partnership working. It's particularly important, I think, in the fields of development and growth. Whilst the funding that the UK Government has is for UK Government to ultimately to determine, working with local government and indeed the Welsh Government in order to deliver these agendas seems to me to be common sense and that's what I'll be applying in the months ahead."
Where do you stand on a further devolution of powers? Obviously justice is something that is topical and the Counsel General Mick Antoniw and Mark Drakeford have spoken about wanting. Just as one example, as I'm sure they'd take any devolution of any further power, but where do you stand on on the further devolution of powers?
"I've had a very good relationship with the First Minister, I've always been crystal clear that I'm a firm believer in the single jurisdiction of England and Wales [in relation to justice]. I think it's one of the leading jurisdictions in the world. We have outstanding Welsh lawyers, judges and other members of the justice system in Wales, who bring a huge knowledge and resource to the whole of our jurisdiction.
"I think that whilst I read the Thomas report and know and respect the protagonists involved, I think that to move towards a separate jurisdiction would be a retrograde step for Wales. It would be costly, it would consume a lot of their energy on time, whereas frankly, the priorities for the justice system in Wales are to make sure that our courts are working in a timely and efficient way, and that our prison system is as efficient and humane as possible whilst protecting the public and that's why I'm much more interested in initiatives like the residential Women's Centre, which when I was just a secretary, I spearheaded and pushed that policy and I'm delighted to see it potentially coming to fruition in Wales."
So it sounds like a no to justice. And is it is it no generally to further devolution of powers? Is it closed door or will you listen to the discussions?
"I think it's a fair question, but I think you know, you look back at what this government has already done. And the reforms to the existing devolution structure that my predecessor Stephen Crabb, and others, initiated and then became legislation were very important moments for devolution, they made it absolutely crystal clear that devolution is here to stay and that there the increased clarity that the Conservative government brought to its reforms means that some of the more unfortunate arguments that have plagued us in the past such as who was responsible for will no longer result in disputes or even litigation.
"I think that we set the terms of reference very, very clearly. The Welsh Government now has significant powers. The assembly is now a Senedd. We have primary legislation powers in Wales, a growing body of Welsh law, you know, my strong view to everybody involved in the government to Wales, is that it's not now about powers. It's about delivery, and it's about getting on with delivering the priorities of the people in Wales, that that focus on outcomes is what I think we should be doing."
I'm sure you've seen some comments that the Welsh Government made which devolution has been trampled on and there's power grabs from London with the Trade Unions Act and and the ongoing legal battle with the Internal Markets Act? So do you believe devolution is safe in its current form, even if you don't want to take it on any further?
"I think devolution is very, very safe with this government. I think that whilst you will always have tensions between different parts of the government of our country, for example, the Trade Union Bill itself, and UKIMP I think tension can be actually be productive thing. It's inevitable that we're going to have some differences of opinion in view. But we have structures within our United Kingdom that allow that spirit of devolution to flourish, but at the same time to ensure that the unity of our country is first and foremost.
"I'm delighted that of course, that Mark Drakeford and I have an absolutely shared belief in the unit of the United Kingdom. He's a unionist and that I think, is an important common belief that we share that we can work upon.
Where do you stand on Welsh independence?
"Independence means separation, separation from for example, one of the greatest jurisdictions in the world, separation for one of the most successful nation states in world history. Separation, not just from the past, but separation from a bright future. I think about all the family and community ties that bind our country together.
"I represent Swindon. Swindon has a vast Welsh diaspora population, the connections with Wales are alive and well, and I can point to many other parts of our country where these ties that bind us are so important. Independence, actually, I believe leads to a decline in living standards a decline in prosperity, a decline in the position of Wales and separation is not the answer to the issues that we face".
Boris Johnson would often talk about say an M4 relief road, and that is something the Conservative Party was going to deliver. They obviously come back to that is that words is a devolved matter for Welsh Government is how do you where do you stand on that side of on that particular argument?
"The Welsh Government needs to make up its mind. I followed this story with great interest for many years because I'm a user of the M4 and been in problems caused by the Bryn Glas tunnels, but I think it's as plain as a pike staff that the current situation is a causing problems not just to motorists like me, but to the Welsh economy. Surely any sensible government planning for the long term should, I think come to the view quickly..."
In their defence I'm sure they would say that they have they've ruled it out and it was Boris Johnson who put it back on the table
"Well, I think they're wrong to to rule it out. I think. I think we've seen the changes of view by the Welsh Government over the years. I cannot see how any, any government that wants to genuinely open up the economy as fully as possible to growth would not want to improve that part of the M4."
So does that mean the government that you're now part that you'll be asking them to look is there a way that UK Government can deliver it?
"I will absolutely advocate strongly for improved infrastructure projects. Whilst I've got to be realistic, the Welsh Government is not supporting it that is quite an obstacle in the way of the aspirations of many of us, not just me, but thousands and thousands of residents in South Wales you know, I have to be realistic but you know, I will always speak up for for local business and the economy, even if the Welsh Government doesn't wish to listen."
What is the best thing about Wales?
"The people and the upward looking nature of the people in Wales we might be a small nation, but we are in our reach. Everybody's heard of Wales and I want even more success to come to our great country."
And what's your favourite place to go to?
"I love Pembrokeshire and my favourite places is North Beach in Tenby."
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