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Wales Online
Wales Online
Politics
Ruth Mosalski

MPs debate future of Wales' union with England - five things we learned

Today, Wales' MPs gathered in a Westminster committee room for the Welsh Grand Committee.

It last met in February 2018 and the topic today was "strengthening the union". Unsurprisingly, there was talk of parties in Downing Street, criticism of Welsh Government's handling of the pandemic, post-Brexit funding and coal tips and who should pay for their maintenance.

There was highly political comments from Welsh secretary Simon Hart and Labour's Jo Stevens with Ms Stevens criticising Boris Johnson and saying he had "degraded and weakened" the union. Mr Hart claimed Welsh Government had "completely ignored information" it had been given.

Here's what we learnt from the committee:

There were no apologies from Simon Hart

It was over to Secretary of State for Wales Simon Hart to open the event.

He said he made "no apologies" to making a pro-active approach to Covid interventions and said there were pages of data about what the UK Government had provided to Covid.

"I make no apology for my unionist credentials," he said. "It's perfectly possible to be patriotically, enthusiastically champion everything that is Welsh but appreciate the value of the union."

He said the question isn't "could Wales survive on its own...but if Wales was to survive on its own what would be the economic and social cost?"

"My attitude to the union is one of respect, but one of reality. One of wanting to take a really detailed look at some of the more complex areas of the debate around defence, currency, intelligence, security, international trade."

There is no love lost between the two governments

Llanelli MP Nia Griffith asked about October and November 2020 when there was a "huge delay" when Welsh Government instigated a firebreak but there was no "movement by UK Treasury" in relation to furlough. She asked if the relationship could be improved so the two work better together.

Mr Hart bit back. "The Treasury did make it clear what was possible and what was not in that timescale and I'm afraid to say Welsh Government completely ignored the information it was given and then made salacious points of that in the press when they knew the Treasury was working to the fastest possible route". He called it "political opportunism".

Mr Hart said that "collaboration and co-operation is [the] preferable route".

"There are occasions where evidence simply doesn't support the decisions and I think the last few weeks although matters have overtaken us, where we've seen some curious interventions suggesting people might be fined for going to work but not for going to the pub, they can do indoor exercise but not parkrun which is well known to be a contributor to people's physical as well as mental health, and watching rugby from the clubhouse but not form the touchline. Things like that started casting doubt in people's minds about whether these were evidence-based interventions or not," he said.

The Welsh Grand Committee was held at the Commons for the first time in four years (House of Commons/Parliament TV)

Preseli Pembrokeshire MP Stephen Crabb told colleagues "the fact is the government, the UK Government, got all the big calls right all the way through pandemic". He said a general Welsh Government narrative that there hasn't been good communication wasn't reflected during Welsh Affairs committee meetings and there had been "an almost unprecedented number of meetings".

"Far from it being a period where UK Government has been snubbing, or not valuing, Welsh Government I think the pandemic has represented a high watermark in terms of engagement." Over claims from Welsh Government that UK Government has been reckless, Mr Crabb said: "When I look at some of the decisions Welsh Government has made around restrictions, that nonsensical ban on outdoor parkruns, criminalising people wanting to go to their workplace, it's odd and divisive and made Welsh Government an outlier across the United Kingdom."

Labour went on the attack against Boris Johnson

It's no surprise, but shadow Welsh secretary Jo Stevens launched a furious attack on the Prime Minister, the minister for the union.

"How shameful is it for the union to have a Conservative PM mired in law breaking, deception and incompetence leading a Government whose ministers at best try to deflect from the Prime Minister's inherent personal failures, and at worst publicly repeatedly endorse them and him.

"The union, far from being strengthened by the Prime Minister and the government, is being degraded and weakened, for all his flag-waving and plastic patriotism, no Prime Minister has ever done more to undermine the union than this one.

"He has irretrievably damaged public trust and confidence in the UK Government and UK politics. That's bad enough a legacy at any time but when it's in a health emergency it's shameful".

She said the leader of the Commons' calling Douglas Ross a "lightweight" and failing to name the leader of the Welsh Conservative group leader Andrew RT Davies. "These aren't just slip-ups, they lay bare the true attitude of the Conservative party to Wales and the union".

'Wales is dominated by one nation'

Plaid Cymru MP Ben Lake told the committee there is a "shortcoming and flawed" structure which is that Wales is "dominated by one nation and one Parliament".

"Such supremacy means that the rights of the other nations are being disregarded very frequently. There's an imbalance in the different settlements of devolution which really do exacerbate the situation".

Mr Lake said Wales does not have the "asymmetrical devolution settlement where Wales doesn't enjoy the same level of autonomy and discretion over policy areas which Northern Ireland and Scotland take for granted. There are certain city regions in England that have greater discretion and influence over certain policy areas than even Welsh Government, I emphasise policing."

There are worries about the union being weakened

There was talk about the levelling up fund, and powers being taken away from Welsh Government.

Independent MP Jonathan Edwards said: "In a debate on strengthening the union, it's important to say that the UK Government has accelerated a process of reunifying Ireland significantly, but returning to Wales I imagine some of those on the Conservative benches are gloating over the UK Government's aggressive attitude towards Wales' democratic institutions but it's a short term strategy. In the long term, particularly if you look to the isle of Ireland and Scotland, the outcome of the UK Government approach will be to weaken the union. Without a doubt the majority of the Welsh population is in favour of devolution and as the UK Government undermines the current settlement, they have to choose between independence and direct control from London."

Mr Edwards said a rise in support for independence was "testament to that" and said that was particularly true in relation to Labour voters.

Conservative Craig Williams, who represents Montgomeryshire, denied the levelling up fund was an "attack on devolution". He said it meant councils could work directly with businesses and communities to "put together bids into a funding pot that is really and truly delivering for the whole UK.

"I took great delight in the wins in Powys because Powys missed so many times any opportunity of getting structural funds and for the first time we're seeing a real opportunity".

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