It seems that Justice Gorsuch is going through the media circuit in advance of his book launch. Yesterday I wrote about this interview with the Wall Street Journal. Today, David French of the New York Times published a transcript of his NMG sit down. To go back to one of my hobby horses, when a publisher gives a book deal to a Justice, with a large advance, the publisher knowns that the media will gladly sit down for interviews in Supreme Court chambers. This is free press that cannot be purchased–well it can be purchased with a substantial advance. All the more reason to place a cap on royalties for Justices. I digress.
French and Gorsuch had an extended discussion of what was learned from the COVID cases. In truth, we need to reflect a lot more on that period than we have. So many of us (present company included) made some terrible decisions. Our faith in the power of government and self-professed "experts" was largely misplaced. And nothing that has happened since the pandemic has restored my faith. Chief Justice Roberts's "super-precedent" in South Bay has not aged well. I have to imagine that distrust was lurking in the background of Loper Bright.
I found the most enlightening exchange to turn on collegiality. I think that is a term that many people use to mean different things. It was well known that Justices Scalia and Ginsburg were dear friends, and often socialized together. They were collegial. But did RBG ever persuade Scalia to change his mind, at least on a big case? Probably not. Does that mean they were not collegial?
Of late, Justice Kagan has been pushing the latter conception of collegiality–that it entails having an open mind, and a willingness to be persuaded. I have to imagine this push is part of her effort to corral Justice Barrett's votes at every opportunity. If there is any common thread with Joan Biskupic's reporting, is that Justice Kagan flipped Justice Barrett in several cases. I've yet to see any indication that a conservative Justice has flipped a liberal member of the court to reach a conservative outcome. Flipping is not ambidextrous–it only works on the left.
I for one, reject the notion that collegiality entails a willingness to reconsider your views. It is always a judge's role to find the truth, and determine the best answer to a particular legal dispute by his or her best lights. And that process primarily entails weighing the arguments advanced by counsel, and deciding which side should prevail. To be sure, judges on a multi-member court will lobby one another for this position or that position. And to maintain relations, it is important to be willing to listen. But I do not think collegiality requires anything more than listening. Indeed, there are problems with this sort of ex-post lobbying that happens after the briefs are submitted and arguments conclude. Perhaps the parties have obvious rejoinders to some post-hoc position raised, but there is no chance to discuss it. The vote at conference reflects an assessment of the actual case, as it is presented. But when votes change after conference, invariably, it will be because of some newly-determined facet of the case that the parties did not have the chance to address. The Court could always order re-briefing and re-argument, but alas, the pattern has been to simply decide cases on grounds that would be entirely foreign to the lower courts. NetChoice and Moyle comes to mind.
David French poses this question to Justice Gorsuch, which he sort-of-answers, indirectly.
French: Justice Kagan gave some remarks to the Ninth Circuit recently where she talked about this issue of collegiality within the court. There's been some friendships, for example, most famously of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Justice Antonin Scalia. Also recently, Justice Sonia Sotomayor gave a speech in which she said some really kind things about Justice Clarence Thomas and the way that he interacts with court personnel.
But Justice Elena Kagan said something interesting. She said the collegiality that America should be looking for — and I'm paraphrasing — is not "Do we go to the opera together?" but "Are we open to each other?" Are we collegial enough to where we are open to each other? What is your temperature check on the collegiality of the court?
Gorsuch: Well, you're not going to drag me to an opera, David.
French: I wasn't expecting to.
Gorsuch: There's a lot in that question.
French: Yeah.
Gorsuch: I don't know whether you want me to talk first about the court.
French: Let's go first with the court and then with the culture.
Gorsuch: Sure. So with the court, I think it is important that we're friends and that we enjoy each other's company. We have a nice dining room upstairs. Lovely dining room, but it is the government, and we bring our own lunch. And oftentimes you'll see the chief justice with a brown bag and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. OK. Those moments are important. They're human. But I also take the point that collegiality in a work environment means being able to work together well. And can I share just some numbers with you that I think tell the story on that?
Gorsuch goes on to explain that the Court decides many cases unanimously, and that he often votes for the "liberal" side of the case. And he says those unexpected coalitions are evidence of "collegiality."
Gorsuch: We decide the 60, 70 hardest cases in the country every year where lower courts have disagreed. That's the only point to get a case to the Supreme Court. We just want federal law — largely our job is to make sure it's uniform throughout the country, and if the circuit courts are in agreement, there's very little reason for us to take a case, unless it's of extraordinary importance.
So most of the work we do is when lower court judges disagree about the law. Magically, I think in this country there are only about 60 or 70 cases. You could argue a little bit more, a little bit less, but there aren't thousands of them. They're very few in number.
There are nine of us who've been appointed by five different presidents over the course of 30 years. We have very different views about how to approach questions of statutory interpretation, constitutional interpretation about political disagreements or interpretive methodological disagreements. Yet we're able to reach a unanimous verdict on the cases that come before us about 40 percent of the time, I think it might have been even higher this last term. I don't think that happens automatically.
I think that's the product of a lot of hard work. I think that's proof of collegiality. OK? That is what we do and we do well. Now people often say, "Well, what about the 6-3s?" Fair enough. Fair enough. But that's about a third of our docket. And it turns out they aren't always what you think they are. About half the 6-3s this last term are not the 6-3s you're thinking about.
Okay, Gorsuch does not actually answer the second part of Kagan's question. The fact that the Justices vote in unusual ways reflects the fact that all of the Justices are, to various extents, heterodox. They are not–contrary to what you might read–ideologues. Trust me, if we had an actual MAGA Court, things would look very different. But Gorsuch does not even hint that collegiality requires a willingness to be persuaded. It is the facts of a case, and the arguments advanced by counsel, that determine the unusual lineups.
I would like this same question posed to Justice Barrett. I think she might see things differently.
French also asked about Justice Kagan's ethics proposal. Gorsuch explains that the facts changed since Kagan's speech. Namely, President Biden wrote a pointless op-ed and Senator Schumer introduced a nuclear bill.
French: We're running out of time, so I do want to get to a couple of other questions. One, Justice Kagan also raised this interesting idea regarding ethics. And she talked about that the Supreme Court has a code of ethics that she appreciates, but she also talked about the possibility of enforcement through — and I'll read the quote here, one moment — "If the chief justice appointed some sort of committee of highly respected judges with a great deal of experience, with a reputation for fairness, you know, that seems like a good solution to me."
And a reason for that, the creation of sort of an outside judicial panel would, part of it would be to protect the court, to provide an outside voice that could not only adjudicate potentially valid claims but also debunk invalid accusations. And she made it clear she was speaking only for herself. What's your reaction to that concept?
Gorsuch: Well, David, since that talk, there's been some developments in the world, and this is now a subject that's being intensely discussed by the political branches, and I just don't think it would be very useful for me to comment on that at the moment.
In hindsight, would Kagan still have given her remarks, knowing what would come the following week? Or perhaps Kagan knew what was coming, and gave her remarks to shift the Overton Window? We are working with a crafty, plugged-in operator here, so be skeptical. How does that work for collegiality?
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