State witness Jonathan Dowdall has insisted his suggestion to Gerry Hutch to kidnap a sister of David Byrne was “sh*te talk.”
In what is his sixth day being cross-examined by Hutch’s Defence Counsel Brendan Grehan SC, Dowdall became increasingly annoyed after being challenged about certain portions of the 10 hour secretly recorded tapes between him and the accused.
Hutch (59) is on trial before the non-jury Special Criminal Court over the murder of David Byrne in Dublin’s Regency Hotel on February 5, 2016 - a charge he denies.
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And in one section of the tape that was played to Dowdall on Monday, the court heard the former Sinn Fein councillor’s telling Hutch that the wife of Kinahan cartel associate Thomas ‘Bomber’ Kavanagh will be at a dancing competition in Ennis Co Meath.
Dowdall today told the court that in bringing this up, Hutch’s defence counsel was “opening up old wounds.”
Dowdall is heard saying that Bomber’s “bird” Joanne Kavanagh, a sister of murder victim David Byrne, will be at this event and that he could “grab her.”
Challenged today about this, Dowdall explained it away as “just nonsense,” adding that he doesn’t know why he’s saying the stuff he’s saying.
Mr Grehan SC then asked the witness “was it the tablets again,” to which he responded by saying it was “sh*te talk.”
"You’re cherry picking certain stuff from the transcripts,” Dowdall told the senior barrister.
Dowdall became angered by Mr Grehan’s suggestion that the witness didn’t like the parts of the audio he was picking and said that in his view nothing he was being asked here had anything to do with the Regency.
Pressed further about this part of the tape, Dowdall insisted that he had “never met” Bomber Kavanagh and he only knows who is is now from what he read in the papers.
He added that he also didn’t know Bomber’s wife and that there was “no meaning” to what he said to Hutch on the tapes about her.
“It was bad what I said, there was no meaning to it,” Dowdall insisted.
Mr Grehan put it to the witness that he was suggesting she be kidnapped.
The witness became further annoyed and said that the barrister was “making a big thing out of nothing,” adding that he didn’t even know if there was a dancing event in Ennis.
“Mr Grehan there was nothing to it. You’re opening wounds. You’re bringing more heartache to everyone involved in this.
“I’m sorry for anything that offended that family in the transcripts. You’re opening salted wounds for no reason,” Dowdall said.
Mr Grehan pressed the witness why he was saying things like this if there was no meaning to it, adding that it appeared to be “targeted stuff.”
At this point Dowdall asked Mr Grehan to “move on” and again insisted that this had nothing to do with the Regency Hotel incident.
Mr Grehan put it to the witness that he appeared to be volunteering people in the tape to kidnap David Byrne’s sister - and he was suggesting to him that this was his “IRA friends.”
“I don’t know who I’m suggesting,” Dowdall said in response. He also said he was “sorry” to the Byrne family for what he was saying in this part of the tape.
Earlier in the day Dowdall was challenged on a part of the tape where he boasted to Gerry Hutch that he got Real IRA boss Alan Ryan to intervene in a dispute.
In the tape Dowdall is heard saying he held a man by the throat and that Ryan gave a man a “clatter”.
Dowdall told the court that this was a good working class family that were “being terrorised” and he couldn’t go to the gardai, so he went to the Ryans for help and the matter was stopped.
The witness dismissed the audio as “locker room talk” and said that Mr Grehan was “making me out here to be the chief of staff of the IRA.”
To that Mr Grehan said it seemed from the audio that Dowdall was able to “boss around” Alan Ryan and his brother Vincent Ryan.
Dowdall exclaimed “Oh Jesus,” to this suggestion and then said that this was the most ridiculous thing that Mr Grehan had said to him so far.
The court was also played a lengthy exchange between Dowdall and Hutch where both men discussed those who were involved in the Regency Hotel attack.
In the tape Hutch is heard saying that even the six people involved in the Regency didn’t know one another.
Mr Grehan put it to Dowdall that Hutch doesn’t bring up the claim that himself and Mago Gately were involved in the attack - despite apparently telling him this in a park in Whitehall a month before.
“Why would Gerard Hutch, who has come to you to confess in the park about his own involvement, why would he lie to you then? Mr Grehan asked.
Dowdall insisted that the accused is lying to him on the tape and that what happened in the park and what happened in the jeep are two separate things.
Later in the day the court was played a portion of the 10 hour recordings where Hutch is heard saying that the people who tried to "do" him and killed his brother Eddie would “have to go away.”
Mr Grehan challenged the witness about his responses to Gerry Hutch in this part of the tape where he appears to be suggesting “a list for execution.”
Dowdall then appeared to sarcastically say to the senior counsel that his client Gerry Hutch “is an angel.”
He then added that in the audio he is telling Hutch what he thinks he wants to hear, and that he didn’t even know the names of the alleged six hitmen who tried to kill The Monk and succeeded in murdering his brother Eddie.
Dowdall said he was “talking sh*t” to Hutch and trying to impress him.
He said that according to Mr Grehan “I started the feud” and was involved in the Regency Hotel attack.
He again insisted that he had nothing to do with either and claimed he “didn’t even know the Kinahans.”
He also said he had never heard of David Byrne’s name until after he was killed.
Earlier in the day Dowdall has he would sooner have taken his own life than to use explosives.
The witness became increasingly frustrated about the amount of days he has been grilled by the Defence, saying he was “sick of bearing with” Mr Grehan.
“How many more days do you want me to be there?” he also asked.
Mr Grehan put it to Dowdall that he had never really been challenged on what he says in the tapes until now - something the witness acknowledged.
The court was played a lengthy exchange between Dowdall and Hutch where the witness discusses in detail the difference between plastic and powder explosives.
Mr Grehan put it to Dowdall that he’s discussing bomb making and appears to be an expert in what he’s saying - something the witness denied.
Dowdall said that nothing ever happened and that what he was discussing in the tapes with Hutch was “nonsense” and he would never use explosives.
He also went further, saying he would have “took me own life,” before using explosives - and adding that after this conversation his actual intention was to leave the country and he had “no intention of coming back.”
Throughout this exchange Dowdall insisted it was just the “situation” he was in and that his supposed knowledge of explosives that he’s discussing with Hutch, he had just learned from the TV - citing the programme “Border Patrol.”
Dowdall has already claimed that he was on tablets during this 10 hour conversation he had with Hutch.
Mr Grehan challenged the witness saying to him “you don’t sound like a man on tablets.”
“You sound very with it. Very precise,” Mr Grehan said.
But again the witness claimed he was on tablets at the time, and that a person wouldn’t necessarily know if someone was.
Dowdall was also played a portion of the tape where the accused man Gerry Hutch discusses the three “yokes” going up north and about it possibly coming back to them.
He was also heavily challenged on his involvement in the moving of the AK-47 rifles that were used in the Regency - something he claims he had nothing to do with.
He says he “never got into that” with Patsy Hutch - a brother of the accused, who he alleges had made contact with IRA man Shane Rowan in relation to that.
But Mr Grehan put it to the witness that it was in fact him that was the first point of contact for Shane Rowan - who was subsequently caught with the rifles in Slane, Co Meath on March 9, 2016.
Dowdall confirmed that he was, but claimed that by this stage others had Rowan’s number - and he had specifically asked to stay out of it.
Earlier Dowdall was challenged on the fact that Rowan travelled from Donegal to Dublin to try and meet with him before February 4, 2016.
Dowdall says he wouldn’t meet with Rowan - and that his father met with him instead.
Mr Grehan asked what was in a plastic bag that was handed by Rowan to Dowdall’s father - to which the witness claimed “rubbish” was inside.
The senior barrister defending for Mr Hutch asked why would Rowan come from Donegal to Dublin to hand Mr Dowdall rubbish.
Also earlier in the day, Dowdall was challenged as to his meetings with Gerry Hutch, who he said met him at his home on the Navan Road on February 12, 2016.
Mr Grehan asked the witness if he thought Mr Hutch had any concerns about surveillance at that point if he had shown up at his house, where there was CCTV.
He then put it to Dowdall why would Mr Hutch meet him in a park if he felt the house, where he had met him before, was a safe place to meet.
Dowdall insisted that he didn’t decide where Mr Hutch met him, and said “I don’t know his reasons for the park.”
Dowdall alleges that Hutch met him in a park in Whitehall in Dublin days after the Regency and confessed to him about his involvement in the murder of David Byrne.
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