This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Rinchen Norbu are joined by Anupam Manur, Professor of Economics at the Takshashila Institution, and Mihira Sood, Supreme Court lawyer specialising in women’s rights.
The panel opens the discussion by examining the government’s decision to introduce a 0.4% fee on UPI merchant transactions above Rs 2,000, asking what the move means for a payment system that has become central to everyday transactions in India.
Anupam Manur acknowledges that UPI generates wider economic benefits, but argues that the current model also creates a problem: who ultimately bears the cost of running the system? He explains that the cost of operating UPI is substantial, while the government subsidises only a portion of it.
Manur says, “When UPI came about, India was miles ahead of the world in some sense. It was truly revolutionary.” But he argues that the costs leave new entrants with insufficient incentive, which has affected private-sector innovation. “Private players are just not incentivized to innovate.”
The discussion then moves from the economics of UPI to the politics of its messaging. Abhinandan argues that the government has often reduced complicated policy questions to easily marketable slogans: “I think the problem is, like many things that Mr. Modi does ever since he’s come, let’s count his slogans. He’s a fantastic ad man.”
The panel then turns to the BJP’s push for a Uniform Civil Code (UCC).
Mihira offers a qualified position. She makes clear that she supports the idea of a UCC in principle, particularly as a route towards greater equality.
But she distinguishes that principle from the particular version being discussed. She says, “What I have a problem with is this particular type of Uniform Civil Code because it is not based in secularism and it is not based in feminism.”
Rinchen questions whether we should even call this a ‘uniform civil code’, given the carve-outs that exist for Scheduled Tribes in states like Uttarakhand, where the BJP has implemented its version of it.
He also argues that the focus on polygamy in the UCC debate distracts from the larger issue of inheritance rights for women. “This whole bigamy, this whole polygamy thing is a red herring; it’s overstated,” he adds, while Mihira breaks down the real legal questions surrounding inheritance if the BJP actually cared about women’s rights.
All this and more.
Hafta letters: Billionaires funding Europe’s far-right, media algorithms, measuring NL’s impact
If you want to write to Hafta, click here. Click here to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the Newslaundry store and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the Newslaundry app.
Song: - Baar Baar Din Ye Aaye
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Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introduction
00:07:03 – Headlines
00:12:01 – MDR on UPI
00:44:03 – Anupam’s Recommendations
00:48:32 – Manisha on Brazil politics
00:55:32 – UCC
01:25:52 – Mihira’s Recommendations
01:28:32 – Letters
01:46:08 – Recommendations
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References
A Hamper for the Questioning Kind
Sip, Read, Wear. Question Power
Let UPI be! Why fix a payment system that isn’t broken?
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Recommendations
Abhinandan Sekhri
Why I Can’t Stop Thinking About ‘The End of History’
Who was Periyar? Remembering the ‘atheist who profaned the gods’
Kash Patel Gets Tangled in Bestiality Questions & Don Jr. Gets a Blushing Bribe
Manisha Pande
Saharanpur mosque, Satya Niketan PG are monuments to the same politics of violence and neglect
Let UPI be! Why fix a payment system that isn’t broken?
Rinchen Norbu
Mary Slusser’s secret loot of Nepal’s sacred art and heritage
Anupam Manur
Mihira Sood
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Saurav Kr. Ranjan and Sound by Anil Kumar.
Hafta 607 with changes
[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta
[00:00:10] Abhinandan: Angrez apna lagaan aur news laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte. I am being so dramatic in this hafta because today is a very special day. Actually, today is not the special day- Yesterday ... yesterday was a, but today is a special day because it is a special day plus one.
[00:00:24] Abhinandan: Today is the day after Prime Minister Modi's birthday, [00:00:30] which is going to be celebrated as what through the month? Let's see your
[00:00:32] Manisha: GK. Seva Sankalp- Abhiyan ... Abhi- Divas Divas Abhiyan Divas. Abhiyan. For one month. For one month it's Abhiyan. For one month. Okay. 10 on
[00:00:39] Abhinandan: 10.
[00:00:40] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:00:41] Abhinandan: I hope you have also celebrated Seva Sankalp Abhiyan Divas, and everyone was instructed to light a diya, and we are no different. We are obedient. So we will start this hafta, which we are recording on the 18th of September, which is the day after 17th of September, which is Modiji's birthday, with lighting a diya.
[00:00:58] Abhinandan: But not just [00:01:00] any lighting of diya. We could have picked any of the following Indian matchbox brands to light this diya. We could have picked brands such as Two Bulls, but we didn't. Camel, we didn't. Pistol, no way. Dulhan, no. Coolie, no. Which brand we pick? Amrit. Amrit brand is what we are going to be lighting this diya with.
[00:01:23] Abhinandan: And because I'm half South Indian, there's a little- Amrit
[00:01:25] Manisha: Kal ...
[00:01:25] Abhinandan: Rajinikanth in all of us. Yeah, to, to match with Amrit Kal. [00:01:30] So I must do a stunt. I hope it doesn't flop.
[00:01:34] Manisha: Shit, dude. Oh.
[00:01:43] Abhinandan: So the deed has been done. We have started Hafta by lighting a diya with Amrit matches with a flick Rajnikanth style, because these days sometimes he's also quite ... So I think we should put this outside, lest we burn something
[00:01:56] Manisha: down. But if you were- Thank you ... a Delhi government school-
[00:01:59] Abhinandan: [00:02:00] Hmm ...
[00:02:00] Manisha: then you would have been told, and this was actually told, that you have to light 270 diyas, three inch size, and left to right the size of the whole diya should be 12 feet into 9.6 feet, and number of- Why not?
[00:02:15] Manisha: diyas i- in the outline should be 131. Number of diyas forming, you have to write Ashirwad in the middle. Mm. Which, uh, 132 diyas would light up the word Ashirwad.
[00:02:27] Abhinandan: Like,
[00:02:27] Manisha: what
[00:02:27] Abhinandan: was the significance of- And take a picture
[00:02:28] Manisha: and
[00:02:28] Abhinandan: send it ... what was the significance of these [00:02:30] dimensions? Is it like 56 inch ki chhaati type of thing?
[00:02:32] Manisha: It's like what you have to do. Every school had to do this- It's prescribed ... take a picture, and then send it. So if you see, all the pictures are identical. The same size, the same diya.
[00:02:40] Abhinandan: That's the beauty. That's the beauty of our governance. And because we also wanted to do something special for Modi Ji's birthday, we figured that these days he's out to search for urban Nax- no.
[00:02:54] Abhinandan: Dimagi Naxals. Dimagi Naxals. So we have launched a special on [00:03:00] Modi Ji's birthday, 25% discount. Here's the QR code. The entire scheme is on this QR code. The Dimagi Naxal fall collection from- ... News Laundry.
[00:03:11] Manisha: Certified.
[00:03:13] Abhinandan: So this includes the following, either this mug or both. Uh, the other, this is the mug that has urban Naxals, suburban Naxal, and the new one- Urban
[00:03:22] Abhinandan: which is lying in front of you. Can you please show that, Manisha? Yeah, give me. This is, and this is the Dimagi Naxal. So this is the Dimagi [00:03:30] Naxal. You can take one or both these mugs.
[00:03:32] Manisha: Yeah.
[00:03:33] Abhinandan: You get this tote bag. You get-
[00:03:35] Manisha: You get a comic in it ... the- Our Aamar Bari
[00:03:38] Abhinandan: Tomaar Bari ... so this is, this is the, the, the bag you can see.
[00:03:41] Abhinandan: The link is also in the, the show notes, the QR code. Then you can pick a T-shirt. We have got two samples. There is another design, which is this design on a T-shirt also. That will be coming s- soon Are you the Maggi Naxal? Black, it's black, it's white, it's black. [00:04:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get all this, 25% discount in lieu of 25 years of public service by Modiji.
[00:04:08] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:04:08] Abhinandan: So therefore we're giving 25% discount. If you don't buy the whole package with a subscription, you get a 14% discount on the individual things, but the entire scheme is explained. Scan the QR code, click on the link, get this, get
[00:04:21] Anupam: this.
[00:04:22] Abhinandan: Now, you could say, "What is the benefit to Modiji of this?"
[00:04:26] Anupam: Sorry, like this.
[00:04:28] Abhinandan: The benefit is that it saves him [00:04:30] time to try to identify you. Just identify yourself. And we had first thought we'll also as a tribute, not just to Modiji, as to Delhi Police also, include a lathi so you can just start beating yourself. But then we said that we should not promote violence with our products.
[00:04:43] Anupam: Hmm.
[00:04:44] Abhinandan: So that you can borrow from someone and start beating yourself. Hmm. Identify yourself and save everybody time. Is it clear to everybody? Yes. So happy birthday, Modiji. No one should say we didn't do our bit. We've done more than our bit. Hmm. All right. [00:05:00] With that, so subscribe and, uh, you can continue to support our journalism, uh, and get these added benefits along the way.
[00:05:09] Abhinandan: Uh, in the studio already having made their contribution to this discussion is Manisha Pandey, who is back from Brazil. And we will have- Yeah ... a little promo in this. She attended a Bolsonaro rally, right?
[00:05:21] Manisha: I attended a Bolsonaro rally, yes.
[00:05:25] Abhinandan: And she was a speaker. His fan. She-
[00:05:26] Manisha: I was, uh... I had gone there, so I didn't go there to cover Brazil [00:05:30] elections just in case people are thinking.
[00:05:31] Manisha: But there was an excellent, uh, journalism conference there held by this magazine called Piauí Magazine, which is like their New Yorker, uh, investigative, longform, fabulous magazine. So they had a conference on journalism, and I was one of the speakers, so I was there. Had a great time, met some really interesting people, and also covered, uh, some aspects of the elections next month.
[00:05:54] Manisha: October 4th, I think they go to polls, and I think it was very interesting.
[00:05:58] Mihira: Uh, we are at [00:06:00] a Bolsonaro rally. And today's Brazil's Independence Day.
[00:06:06] Manisha: Uh, the right wing celebrates this day as, uh, very important, and they believe that Brazil got true independence when Bolsonaro was voted into power. What, what makes you most
[00:06:18] Brazil: uncomfortable with it?
[00:06:21] Brazil: I think that- Maybe the way he's, this, he, they see women in general. As I told you, Bolsonaro [00:06:30] have that famous phrase was like, "Ah, uh, I have three sons," and then, "I was we- weak in the end and I made a daughter."
[00:06:38] Abhinandan: Also joining us is Rinchin, who, uh, has been here after two week break, right?
[00:06:45] Rinchen: Yeah, after
[00:06:46] Abhinandan: two week break.
[00:06:47] Abhinandan: Yeah. Two week break. And I'm Abhinandan Sekhri. Joining us later on in the show will be our two guests who will be discussing this UPI thing and the Uniform Civil Code. Meher Sood, she's been on the Hafta before. She's a prominent lawyer. And also Anupam [00:07:00] Manur, who's a professor of economics at Takshashila Institution.
[00:07:03] Abhinandan: A more elaborate, um, introduction of them later, but let's get the headlines first. Manisha, will you please do the honors?
[00:07:11] Manisha: Yes. The union government clarified that UPI merchant transactions above Rupees 2,000 will attract a 0.4% fee. The fee is capped as 300 per transaction for payments of 75,000 and above.
[00:07:24] Manisha: The ministry said the new framework will not apply to person-to-person UPI transactions [00:07:30] regardless of the amount transferred. Rahul Gandhi demanded that the government roll back the UPI charges, urging PM Modi to have a spine and stop lying down in front of the United States. The Election Commission, in an interim order, barred both Trinamool Congress factions from using the party's name and symbol in the upcoming assembly polls on October 6th, by-polls.
[00:07:50] Manisha: The poll body asked the factions led by former chief minister Mamata Banerjee and Ritabrata Banerjee, who's the leader of the opposition in the assembly, to pick new names and symbols until the dispute is [00:08:00] resolved.
[00:08:00] Song: Hmm.
[00:08:01] Manisha: Shameful. Amit Shah said BJP and NDA-led governments in all 21 states would implement the Uniform Civil Code before 2029.
[00:08:10] Manisha: Shah's UCC push has drawn mixed responses from NDA allies. While JDU is opposed to implementing the UCC in Bihar, LJP Ram Vilas has sought wider consultation before taking a position. TDP, Eknath Shinde's Shiv Sena, and Hindustani Awam Morcha have backed Shah's proposal.
[00:08:27] Abhinandan: Yeah, and also, um, for [00:08:30] the birthday Uh, Mr.
[00:08:32] Abhinandan: Paswan sat on the yagya with Rajnath Singh, et cetera-
[00:08:36] Manisha: Yeah, this was a show of solidarity of- Yeah, yeah ... all allies in Varanasi.
[00:08:40] Abhinandan: Mm.
[00:08:40] Manisha: An NIA court sentenced 10 people to life imprisonment for their role in 2013 Girim Valley Maoist attack which killed 29 people, including senior Congress leaders. The CBI has registered an FIR in connection with the 2020 death of Disha Salian.
[00:08:57] Manisha: The FIR names Uddhav Thackeray and his son Aditya [00:09:00] Thackeray as persons whose roles require investigating.
[00:09:03] Abhinandan: Which is different from naming someone as an accused, because I think the headlines have confused a lot of people. Um, it's, yeah, there's, there's a difference.
[00:09:10] Manisha: Yeah. The names also include Rhea, Dino Morea, Suraj Pancholi, Parambir Singh.
[00:09:16] Manisha: It's just nuts how this case keeps coming back again and again. We've done so much reporting on it, so do, do read from back then.
[00:09:22] Abhinandan: Yeah.
[00:09:23] Manisha: Including some of the conspiracies floating again. They've been debunked in 2020- Yeah ... by us. But I
[00:09:27] Abhinandan: think Arnab has a [00:09:30] axe to grind with, with this police commissioner and the rest, because, you know, that's when he was arrested, et cetera.
[00:09:34] Abhinandan: So, mm.
[00:09:36] Manisha: The BJP governments announced the month-long celebrations as Seva Sankalp Abhiyan to celebrate PM Modi's birthday. Several Delhi government schools have been directed to light diyas on school premises, and lots of celebrations happening everywhere. You will be full of ads. Across
[00:09:52] Abhinandan: the country, medical colleges- Yeah
[00:09:52] Abhinandan: they were told to do this, and we've already done our bet, Modi Ji.
[00:09:54] Manisha: Yes.
[00:09:54] Abhinandan: So that's...
[00:09:56] Manisha: Hum deepak jala chuke
[00:09:58] Abhinandan: hain. Ha.
[00:09:58] Manisha: Hum deepak jala [00:10:00] chuke sanam. Maratha quota activist Manoj Jarange Patil called off his hunger strike, but warned the Maharashtra government that he would launch a protest in Mumbai if his demands for reservations for the community were not considered within three months.
[00:10:15] Manisha: Swatantra Bhardwaj, who allegedly assaulted the father of a student activist during Aam Aadmi Party protest, was granted three weeks of interim bail. In other news, IPS officer Bushra Bano was transferred by the West Bengal government [00:10:30] two days after Hindutva groups criticized her for using greetings like asal- assalamualaikum and inshallah.
[00:10:37] Manisha: In an online video, they said, "Why did she not say Vande
[00:10:41] Song: Mataram or
[00:10:42] Manisha: Jai Hind?" Oh, yeah. Namaste kyu nahi bola? The Tata Sons board approved a fresh five-year term for N. Chandrasekaran as chairman of the holding company despite opposition from Tata Trust chairman Noel Tata. The board also decided to go for a listing of the company as mandated by the RBI.
[00:10:58] Abhinandan: In fact, as we are [00:11:00] recording this, a statement has come out from the Shapoorji Pallonji Group First of all, appreciating Modi Ji for his greatness. Uh, but also, uh, you know, saying that they're non-committal about, um, the two sticking issues, which is the reappointment and I think, uh, they still haven't commented while we're recording on whether what their view is of going public.
[00:11:23] Manisha: Hmm.
[00:11:23] Abhinandan: But this whole battle is, is now kind of blowing up, uh, in everybody's face. So we'll [00:11:30] see how it plays out. By the end of this day, I think many developments will have taken place.
[00:11:33] Manisha: Hmm. More than 30 children from the indigenous Baiga tribe have died in Madhya Pradesh's Balaghat district amid a severe shortage of safe drinking water, malnutrition, and basic healthcare.
[00:11:44] Manisha: The acute water shortage has forced children to consume contaminated water, worsening monsoon-related illnesses such as severe diarrhea and gastroenteritis.
[00:11:52] Anupam: Hmm.
[00:11:54] Manisha: The US House of Representatives passed legislation allowing President Donald Trump to impose tariffs [00:12:00] of up to 100% on India and other countries buying Russian oil and gas.
[00:12:04] Manisha: It's like nothing moves. Surya- It's like
[00:12:07] Abhinandan: one-year-old headlines just keeps coming back ... that stays the same. Right. With that we have now a guest who has joined us from the Takshashila Institution. Hi, Anupam. Thank you.
[00:12:15] Anupam: Hello. Hi.
[00:12:18] Abhinandan: What a pleasure to be here. Welcome back. Our regular Haftas are familiar with Anupam.
[00:12:20] Abhinandan: He has been on Hafta before. Uh, Anupam, before, uh, we start, just wanted to give you some very good news that because you have joined us on this special Hafta, we will be shipping [00:12:30] to you either this mug, which is which naxal are you, or this one, Dimagi Naxal. So you can either- ... gift it to someone who is a naxal or Dimagi Naxal-
[00:12:41] Abhinandan: or you can keep it yourself. We are just doing this so that it's easier to be identified and we do not waste the time of authorities. We also got t-shirt- Oh,
[00:12:50] Anupam: I was thinking of getting a tattoo on me just so that everybody can see it very clearly.
[00:12:54] Abhinandan: Oh, like that. Sure. Okay. Fine. So with that, uh, to our [00:13:00] audience, Anupam is a professor of economics at Takshashila Institution.
[00:13:04] Abhinandan: His research interests lie at the intersection of economics, technology, and public policy, which makes him very well qualified to talk about this whole UPI fracas. He is currently working on platform economics, India's ongoing job crisis, digital payments, and the new world order. He is the managing editor of Indian Public Policy Review, a peer-reviewed, open access, bi-monthly journal of economics, public policy, and strategy.
[00:13:27] Abhinandan: Click on the link and you can access that. It's below in [00:13:30] the window. So Anupam first, uh, just for our audience, you know, there's the UPI payments that you do. So far there was no transaction fee. If you give 10 rupees, 10 rupees go there. Now, the proposal is there's gonna be a 0.4 transaction fee on every transaction, which is merchant.
[00:13:46] Abhinandan: That means if you're buying, if you're in indulging in commerce, and the person who makes the purchase, uh, above 2,000 rupees, not below 2,000. But if it's you're just transferring money from one person to the other, as friends [00:14:00] are borrowing or only borrowing, I don't think anyone pays back. Or
[00:14:05] Manisha: splitting after eating together.
[00:14:07] Manisha: Yeah. That is really helpful.
[00:14:08] Abhinandan: The, then, then the guy who's made the actual payment suffer.
[00:14:11] Manisha: Never gets any, yeah. There's always that.
[00:14:12] Abhinandan: Right.
[00:14:13] Manisha: Thanks for the treat.
[00:14:15] Abhinandan: Thanks for... So, but, so but the good thing is you won't have to pay for that mon- you won't have to pay an additional, you know, uh, uh, they, they're calling it a discount, but it's basically a, a, a, um, fee, a transaction fee.
[00:14:27] Abhinandan: Fee,
[00:14:28] Anupam: yeah.
[00:14:28] Abhinandan: Now, uh, [00:14:30] this has, like many things, Anupam, taken on a polarized tone. You know, depending on what your view of the government is, you're either opposing or rather than- Mm ... the merits of the case. I remember maybe a month or two months ago, uh, I had recommended a podcast where Govind Raj had spoken briefly about this several months ago.
[00:14:48] Abhinandan: In fact, before this, that banks were saying a long time ago that they have to incur a cost. Uh, in-house server costs. Like, it's not like, you know, [00:15:00] just a few transactions happen. By the way, feel free to incur a server cost to us. Here's a QR code. Subscribe. Happy to pay 0.4%. Although we pay 18% GST as news, which is integral to democracy, to the government.
[00:15:16] Abhinandan: But yeah. But he said that server costs are, that there's hundreds and thousands of transactions that happen on banks, and there is a cost that's incurred. It's not costless, and at some point they will have to be compensated for it. [00:15:30] How significant is that cost? Uh, how true is it? Of course, I'm, I'm not saying that is how we should frame our discussion, you know, with scholars such as yourself, but you know, reality show hosts who have been very successful startup founders have a certain pop culture credibility like Kashmeer Grover.
[00:15:48] Abhinandan: Uh, the, the numbers he rattled off that all the agencies involved Um, that are part of the entire UPI, you know, pipeline. No one's in the red, so what's [00:16:00] the problem? Uh, how accurate or true is that? Is that how things are measured? So first do tell us about the bit on what are the merits and demerits of this, or the inevitability of someone having to bear a cost.
[00:16:14] Anupam: Okay, yeah. Um, I mean obviously there's a lot to unpack here, but I will start with the idea that, um, yes, this is a polarized debate again. And for once I find myself being, um, even though generally a opponent of [00:16:30] pretty much everything that this government does, I'm, I'm for this. I, in fact, I've been arguing for a positive MDR, a merchant discount rate, f- since 2016, in fact.
[00:16:39] Song: Hmm.
[00:16:39] Anupam: Uh, so, um, I've been consistent throughout that there has to be, because there are costs involved. Um, it's not a free lunch, and therefore that cost has to be ultimately passed. We don't blink twice when we pay 2% MDR on every credit card transaction, um, that is absorbed partly by the merchant, partly by us, and it's just something that is taken.
[00:16:58] Anupam: Whereas, I, [00:17:00] I for entirely different reasons, and in fact, the government shot itself in the foot by doing demonetization first- Hmm ... then wanted to do digital economy- Hmm ... and then therefore painted themselves in a corner where they had to give UPI for free.
[00:17:15] Song: Hmm.
[00:17:15] Anupam: And, and once something is for free, you know, we get that entitlement, we have that endowment effect, we don't wanna give it up, and the entire kind of economic language of that has been, um, corrupted really by emotional argument, by entirely...
[00:17:29] Anupam: But [00:17:30] the economics is quite clear. Okay? And I'm, I'm probably gonna, you know, I'll probably try and get you through this. Um, there are at least six layers, um, and each one of them does incur a cost. I can go through that, um, all, but I think that'll take too much time. Yeah. But I'll just give you this thing, right?
[00:17:45] Anupam: The NPCI is of course, it's a routing, they build the routing infrastructure. They come up with some of the in- e- you know, in- innovation. Um, they have the protocol, they maintain the protocol, the settlement instruction, all of that. Then there's the two
[00:17:59] Abhinandan: back-to-back- [00:18:00] And NPCI is a government body. It's a quasi-government body.
[00:18:03] Abhinandan: It's a not-for-profit. It- How would you qualify it?
[00:18:06] Anupam: It's a not-for-profit private entity. Um, it's just run by a consortium of banks. Those banks are both private sector banks and public sector banks. The RBI regulates the NPCI, but- Again, there's an entire mess there because NPCI has been given far more power than it should for a private consortium of banks.
[00:18:27] Anupam: It gets to regulate how payments are done, which [00:18:30] should only be the monetary policy authority, which is RBI. So there's a lot of muddled up thinking there as well. And, you know, I can give you specific instances where NPCI has overshot its, um, you know, its jurisdiction, uh, and so on, right? When it says, you know, no player can do more than 30%, that's both Competition Commission and RBI's remit.
[00:18:49] Anupam: But NPCI is setting rules on how payments are made, which should not be the case. Um, but okay, so there's NPCI, there's the bank that, um... And I'll, I'll just elaborate on this [00:19:00] bit just to give you an idea, and the rest I'll be very brief, right? There's the remitter's bank. So let's say I'm paying you some money, right?
[00:19:05] Anupam: Um, and I have a bank. Now, there's a whole bunch of things that goes into what goes on there. I'm just writing an article on this, so I did a lot of research. Um, and I found this fascinating because I didn't know exactly what was involved, right? But every UPI transaction basically hits the payer's bank, that is my bank It hits my core banking system, right?
[00:19:24] Anupam: And there, there is a balance check, there's a pin validation, and then there's the debit. Um, so your central [00:19:30] core banking system has to have the capacity for this. It also means SMS alerts that I get, which means I have to pay the telcos for this. There's fraud screening that they have to do, and finally customer screening, customer service or reversal if something goes wrong.
[00:19:43] Anupam: All of this, for example, has a cost, and the bank doesn't benefit from this at all because not even in terms of customer acquisition, because that sits at the layer of the app. So why should they bear this cost for nothing? They don't get compensated.
[00:19:57] Abhinandan: And the cost is, one is server cost. They will have to [00:20:00] hire someone to troubleshoot in case there is something with the UPI.
[00:20:02] Abhinandan: Yeah. They, I mean, there'll be some auditing costs of this. There'll be some consolidation costs of, you know, payments made. So there are both tech and manpower costs of-
[00:20:11] Anupam: Yeah ...
[00:20:11] Abhinandan: switching to this transaction method.
[00:20:14] Anupam: Yeah, right. Um, this is just on the payer's bank. Then your own bank, let's say if I'm paying you, your bank has again, a set of costs associated with it.
[00:20:22] Anupam: Then there's a PSP or sponsor bank. Now remember that PhonePe, for example, uh, is not, does not have a banking license. It has to tie up with another bank [00:20:30] that does all of this for it, right? So then there's that part of that integration that there is a cost. Then there's finally the app itself. So that's what we call as the TPAP's or, um, so that's your PhonePe, Google Pay, et cetera.
[00:20:41] Anupam: They have their entire thing. It could be customer acquisition, it could be the actual UX, the QR distribution. Now, for example, that is, that's been the revolution in India, right? The fact that you can just scan a QR, that's not seamless. Mm. You need to match that QR with the bank account. Um, then there's the sound box innovation that was done, again, that has cost incurred to it.
[00:20:59] Anupam: Um, so all of that [00:21:00] is what the TPAP's are taking up, right? And then finally there's a payment aggregator. So you could have Razorpay or PayU or whatever, which sits on top of this, which collects all of it. So there's six layers, each one of them facing these costs, none of them being kind of compensated for this, right?
[00:21:15] Anupam: Right. Which is why your big players like PhonePe and Google Pay, they can mine your data, they can use it, they can try to sell you something else in return, or they have enough backing from Google and Walmart The reason why you have a two-player system is because newer entrants can't afford this, [00:21:30] where they keep building things without getting compensated for it.
[00:21:33] Anupam: For me, that is essentially the problem as to why we need an MDR. You need an incentive for newer players to come in.
[00:21:39] Abhinandan: Now, as far as the, uh, criticism of this is concerned that the NPCI, which is the National Payments Corporation of India, which is a not-for-profit, which is run by a consortium of banks, both private and public sector, it's not like they're in a loss.
[00:21:53] Abhinandan: I don't know if they are or not, I haven't seen the balance sheets. It's not like any bank is being a loss. Is that actually true? Uh, is [00:22:00] NC, uh, is NPCI net positive, net break even, or does it even matter?
[00:22:07] Anupam: No, see, N- NPCI i- is, because it's a not-for-profit company and it is not the thing, I don't know about its exact balance sheets- Sure
[00:22:15] Anupam: whether it's at loss or not. But the idea or the argument that banks are not at a loss, so therefore they should continue giving this for free, for me, that argument does not make sense. I mean, you know, Tata Motors is not at a loss, so should they give a car for free, right? I mean, i- i- at some point that, that argument [00:22:30] breaks down.
[00:22:30] Anupam: Mm. Uh, because banks are now subsidizing this with a whole bunch of other services that they offer for profit.
[00:22:37] Abhinandan: Right.
[00:22:38] Anupam: Um, a- and they have to channel that money into all of this. So,
[00:22:40] Abhinandan: so it basically compromises efficiency that could you be used to make other banking experiences better, which we-
[00:22:47] Anupam: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Abhinandan: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Anupam: And, and even this, my main problem is this, right? I, I don't know if you've ever fai- faced a failed transaction. They are increasing, you know, uh, by the day because, you know, you can go there, the circle keeps going. You don't know... The, for me, that's the [00:23:00] Schrödinger's cat of, um- ... you know, transactions. It's what happened and not happened at the same time.
[00:23:04] Anupam: You don't know whether to make the payment again. All of that is because there's not enough money or investment that is going into resilience, into fraud prevention, into, you know, making sure that the transactions are seamless. Um, there's no customer, you know, resolution, for example. I send you money. Uh, let's say I've sent you 10,000 instead of 1,000 by mistake.
[00:23:24] Anupam: Oh. That's it. I kiss it goodbye. There's no way for me to recover. Um, I send money to, let's say, [00:23:30] a UPI ID which is defunct, right? Um, so you had an account with some bank, along with that came a UPI ID, and I've sent money to that, but you've closed your bank account. I can't recover that. That's just, again, gone.
[00:23:40] Anupam: It's vanished, right? So you need a strong customer service support. You need grievance redressal mechanisms. None of that exists today because nobody has the incentive to build that.
[00:23:48] Abhinandan: To... Yeah, right. So, uh, Manisha, do you have a take on this? Have you followed this? Although, I think the... I personally am leaning towards the inevitability [00:24:00] of there have to, has to be a cost to it.
[00:24:01] Abhinandan: It cannot be free. I think the problem is like many things that Mr. Modi does ever since he's come, let's count the slogans. He's a fantastic ad man. He's like the Ogilvy and, what was it?
[00:24:12] Rinchen: Matha.
[00:24:12] Abhinandan: Matha. Mm.
[00:24:13] Manisha: Mm.
[00:24:14] Abhinandan: Ka baap.
[00:24:15] Rinchen: Mm.
[00:24:16] Manisha: Right.
[00:24:18] Abhinandan: Whatever, uh, ‹Swachh› India. India is far from swach. D- Delhi is the dirtiest it's been since my lifetime.
[00:24:25] Rinchen: Yeah. ‹
[00:24:25] Abhinandan: Khello› India. Today's newspaper, there will be no sports events [00:24:30] in NCR or others from November to Jan because the air is so polluted that you cannot have sports. Okay. Digital India, cashless India, ‹ye vo›. You know, it, he just comes with slogans. Uh, what happened to that slogan now? Like, someone should say, "What, what happened to Khello India?
[00:24:45] Abhinandan: Are we khello-ing?"
[00:24:46] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:24:47] Abhinandan: We are very pelo-ing.
[00:24:48] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Abhinandan: So the, the... You cannot play, yaar. It's filthy. I mean, you'll create sportsmen and they'll be breathing 800 AQI. Yeah. And, uh, of, and for a cabinet that has never played a sport, I mean, you, you just... Look at [00:25:00] them, man. I mean, they're the most unathletic slobs I've ever come across.
[00:25:03] Abhinandan: But the point is that there is... I mean, my criticism is that his entire thing of go cashless- Mm ... Digital India.
[00:25:12] Song: Mm.
[00:25:13] Abhinandan: Now there is an incentive to use cash. Wherever the incentive is where people will go. Yeah. You cannot say, "Pay and go digital." They'll say, "No, I'd rather not pay." Like petrol pumps have said, "We will not accept digital payments above 2,000.
[00:25:26] Abhinandan: Pay in cash."
[00:25:28] Manisha: Also, how will they track? [00:25:30] One of the things they've said is you have to track that the cost is not passed on to the consumer. Yeah. But how, how will- They can't ... I don't know how they'll track that
[00:25:37] Abhinandan: because-
[00:25:38] Anupam: Because overall- That is completely idiotic, by the way. That's- You cannot... I mean, in economics, we know you cannot legislate incidence.
[00:25:44] Anupam: Oh. Right? Where the incidence finally, whether it's a tax or any such fee- Yeah ... um, it will ultimately go to the place which has the maximum, what we call as elasticity, right? As in where if I have to fi- have petrol, and I don't mind paying for it, I will pay. And, and [00:26:00] the petrol pumps will pass it on to me in one way or the other.
[00:26:02] Abhinandan: Exactly.
[00:26:03] Manisha: So I am a complete UPI addict.
[00:26:07] Abhinandan: Mm.
[00:26:07] Manisha: Like, I have not used- You
[00:26:09] Abhinandan: pay even if you are not buying anything. Just let me distribute money.
[00:26:11] Manisha: No, I mean, I just don't, I don't- I have not gone to an ATM for the longest time.
[00:26:16] Abhinandan: Mm.
[00:26:16] Manisha: I don't carry any cards. Yeah. I don't... I've even stopped carrying my wallet with me.
[00:26:19] Manisha: Yeah. I only use Google Pay. So-
[00:26:21] Abhinandan: How European of you.
[00:26:22] Manisha: No, Europe is complete opposite.
[00:26:24] Abhinandan: No, dude. I- Yeah.
[00:26:25] Manisha: Europe,
[00:26:26] Abhinandan: like
[00:26:27] Manisha: Germany, is so- I got family there.
[00:26:27] Abhinandan: I got family there. Gen Z doesn't [00:26:30] believe in carrying anything except a phone They just-
[00:26:33] Manisha: But then they have, uh, so many shops where they haven't ... At least in Germany I noticed- Mm
[00:26:37] Manisha: that so many places don't have, uh- Mm ... Google Pay or whatever. So I am completely dependent on it. But I was reading this explainer in The Hindu today which said that actually it's just about 2% people will be impacted because of all the transactions, about 4 or 5% are above 2,000.
[00:26:53] Mihira: Hmm.
[00:26:53] Manisha: So I'm guessing ultimately it's gonna be very few people like us, people like me, who will be impacted by this.
[00:26:58] Mihira: Hmm.
[00:26:59] Manisha: The two [00:27:00] things that I thought was, one, this whole thing of we will track, uh, that the, uh- At what? ... cost is not passed on. That is just- Department. Correct ... doesn't make any sense. It, it will be passed on to us. Sure. And the second thing, a little clarity. Like when you come up with something ... And it's, I'm sure it's not just people like me.
[00:27:17] Manisha: Everyone in India since COVID has really moved on to UPI. Like even your nariyal pani, you know, when you go, there's always a QR code everywhere. Hmm. So when you're coming up with something that's gonna alter a pattern that you've built since COVID- Yeah ... which [00:27:30] now the whole country is dependent on, you have to have clear communication on it.
[00:27:34] Manisha: There was just so much confusion yesterday There was this fake news fact-check from the government itself- Mm. Yeah ... that this is not happening, that's happening. So just at least take some time to clarify what you're coming out with- Mm ... and put it out in clear points for everyone to understand what's happening.
[00:27:49] Abhinandan: But they were doing yagyas yesterday- ... so I don't think they had the time to... Everyone did a yagya. Mm. Did you- Even,
[00:27:55] Manisha: I think even mandir donations and all now have, like, Dan Patra- Everything- Everything [00:28:00] has a QR code in India ... I
[00:28:01] Rinchen: mean, uh, so I just have one question actually for Anupama, which is that you s- sort of, he sort of broke down the cost, as in- Mm
[00:28:08] Rinchen: you know, every, at every level, what are the costs that are... Uh, d- do you have any real numbers in terms of what, how much those costs are? Because the reason why I'm asking this is because, so UPI, although it is not a public good, I mean, technically it's not a public good, it's a vital p- it's a vital sort of digital public infrastructure- Mm
[00:28:28] Rinchen: that we have. [00:28:30] Um, so in some, in, in a lot of these instances, for example, um, let's just say like free bus rides, for example, or, you know, some of these in, uh, in- schemes and initiatives that governments come up with, right? Like, of course there's a cost to be borne, but there's a much larger- There's a larger...
[00:28:45] Abhinandan: Okay,
[00:28:46] Rinchen: gotcha ... there's a much larger payout benefit that happens. So, uh, I just wanna ask Anupama, yeah- So is
[00:28:50] Abhinandan: there a positive externality that occurs- Exactly ... on account of this?
[00:28:53] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:28:54] Anupam: I am so glad you asked me this. I was hoping that you would, right? Um, so yes, there is... I, I mean, I don't have it [00:29:00] at the disaggregated sense as to how much the banks pay versus NPCI.
[00:29:03] Anupam: Mm. But the total cost of running UPI is something like 20,000 crores. Hm. Okay? There, thereabouts, plus or minus 1,000 crores, which is, you know, pocket change for Abhinanda, right? So, um- Um, but, um, the subsidy that was given by the government, at its peak, um, you know, was around, yeah, I think it was 5,000 crores.
[00:29:22] Anupam: Then it's steadily coming down. One year it's 3,500 crores. One year it was just 437 crores. Not thousand, 437
[00:29:29] Anupam: [00:29:30] crores.
[00:29:30] Song: Mm.
[00:29:30] Anupam: Um, so cost is 20,000, so government is subsidizing 437 crores. The rest of it, if you ask me, you're actually stealing from private players. Yeah. It could be the banks, it could be the, the... Right? So that's the, just the, uh, order of magnitude that we're talking about. In terms of positive externality, yes- So, uh, it's not a public good.
[00:29:47] Anupam: I wanna make that completely clear. Yeah. It is excludable. Um, on the margin, it rivalrous as it gets congested. That is why you have those delayed- Mm ... payments, whole bunch of things. Yeah. So it's not a public good.
[00:29:56] Abhinandan: Yeah.
[00:29:57] Anupam: The best economic case or [00:30:00] justification for subsidizing it is the idea that it is a positive externality or it has network externalities, right?
[00:30:05] Anupam: Um, so people get benefit from others using it as well. Now, even in that case, there are so many things in life that has a positive externality where you don't subsidize it for full.
[00:30:17] Manisha: Mm.
[00:30:17] Anupam: So the idea is this, right? There's a marginal private cost and private benefit, and there's a social cost and social benefit.
[00:30:23] Anupam: Basically, that's a spillover effect. You subsidize up to the point of that spillover, not the entire thing.
[00:30:29] Rinchen: Mm.
[00:30:29] Anupam: [00:30:30] So for example, um, I get benefited from, you know, let's say my neighbor going to the school or neighbor's children going to school. Um, that's a positive externality, right? But you don't subsidize education in full.
[00:30:41] Anupam: You subsidize the part which has in between, right? And, and this is true for everything. So vaccines have a positive externality. It's not that vaccines are free for everybody. Mm. It's not that schools are free for everybody. Right. It's free for some people at the lowest margin. It is, um, subsidized in some way.
[00:30:57] Anupam: You know, you basically take- Bursaries, scholarships. [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Abhinandan: You have scholarships-
[00:31:00] Anupam: Yeah ...
[00:31:00] Abhinandan: bursaries, et cetera.
[00:31:01] Anupam: Scholarships. You do basically government-aided schools. Mm. Whole bunch of things. And for some people, you charge entirely at the full margin- Complete. Right ... full market rate, right? And for everything, so even vaccines as well.
[00:31:11] Anupam: During COVID, for example, which was the clearest case where you need a positive externality, some people got it for free Some people paid full amount- Mm ... and that is perfectly fine. So positive externality doesn't justify giving the entire thing for free, which is what they've done now, right? So that the 2,000 cap is exactly that.
[00:31:29] Anupam: Up to [00:31:30] 2,000 for the small merchants, no effect, right? Mm. Only beyond that. And even there, it is for those, um, merchants who get more than 1 lakh rupees a month through the UPI QR code.
[00:31:43] Mihira: Mm.
[00:31:43] Anupam: Only then does it apply, right? So there's so much of caveats already and, uh, you're absolutely right. Um, there's... I think all put together, I think less than 3% of transactions are gonna get impacted, right?
[00:31:55] Anupam: I- So, uh, um, I think that's fair play, honestly. Yeah. And, and that- if that goes into, for example, [00:32:00] prevention of fraud, in terms of the benefit, net benefit to consumers, that's much higher. That's also positive- Um, last ... Yeah, sorry.
[00:32:07] Abhinandan: Uh, uh, and, and that's also a positive externality, as is health. I, I just wanna
[00:32:11] Abhinandan: If, if that creative director of that very prominent ad agency from the late '90s, early 2000s watching, I had come with a concept when I was a producer. That time there was credit card. Yeah. It said, "Go plastic." So I had come with a campaign, "Go plastic." One reason to go plastic. So it was a series of quick ads, you know, [00:32:30] someone digging their nose and giving you cash.
[00:32:32] Abhinandan: Someone scratching their arse- ... scratching their crotch and giving you cash. Someone ... And you know, you, you show the journey of a note- ... and say, "One more reason to go plastic." So there is a health benefit as well. Less people fall ill by, you know, when you count money like this, and you might be kind of wiping off a person's booger.
[00:32:51] Abhinandan: So there is positive health externalities as well, which is impossible to calculate. You have any other insights? Yeah,
[00:32:56] Rinchen: I, I ... One more, one more thing is, [00:33:00] um, and I think Anupam sort of, uh, made a reference to this earlier, and I, uh, and you sort of talked about, and you also talked about it, but incentives, right?
[00:33:07] Rinchen: Like now since 2016, since demonetization, since this whole push towards-
[00:33:12] Abhinandan: Yeah ... like- As an incentive structure, it completely goes the other way.
[00:33:14] Rinchen: Yeah, it completely goes the other way. Now you've ... Now even though technically this might be between merchant to merchant, it might be only 2, 3% of transactions, but once the man on the street hears that this is no longer free- Right.
[00:33:29] Rinchen: So [00:33:30] that creates, you know, as f- I mean, a lot of people who are not, have no- who have not been in the formal financial or banking system have, have been able to create a sort of clear digital sort of footprint, you know, have- Hmm ... you know, uh, they've been able to borrow money from formal financial institutions because now with UPI you can trace their purchases, you can trace their transactions, you can trace whatever, right?
[00:33:55] Rinchen: So, um, now w- uh, and this is on the point of incentives that now [00:34:00] you've ... And the, and the issue of messaging and how p- poorly the government has botched this whole messaging of this entire process. But
[00:34:07] Manisha: I feel like people will know that they will not be impacted. Because like we said, this is 2%, 3% of people, so it's like people like us, actually, who will probably now think before using UPI when you're buying a phone or making a, you know, expensive purchase.
[00:34:20] Manisha: Yeah, I think
[00:34:21] Anupam: that's where it'll get
[00:34:22] Manisha: impacted. Most- I mean,
[00:34:23] Anupam: if I go to a restaurant now, and, you know, I have to pay, let's say, a group and we have to pay a 10,000 rupees bill, we will then choose, I'll, [00:34:30] I'll choose to pay by card instead of UPI because now the card will give me incentives. Now, on the other hand, I, I believe, and this is just a speculation now, but I think the UPI companies like Google Pay and PhonePe can actually go back to giving those rewards that they used to earlier.
[00:34:42] Anupam: Hmm. Because I think the, the idea is that you get now 16,000 crores, uh, per year as total revenue. That is split between banks, your TPAPs, um, NPCI. There's, there's some kind of a split there happening. Um, I think Deepak Amat- Amat has written, um, a [00:35:00] article on this, exactly how the split happens, in Mint, for anyone who's interested.
[00:35:03] Anupam: Um, but part of that split I think will be going back to inducing customers, the customer acquisition. Right. So I think, yeah.
[00:35:10] Abhinandan: A- a- and, and, um, for our viewers, we have published a piece today by Vivek Kaul, one of our favorite columnists, who has actually written an analysis/opinion piece arguing in favor of no need to levy this cost.
[00:35:24] Abhinandan: Why fix something that isn't broken? You can read that also for that view, in which he's given some data of the amount of people who [00:35:30] will be impacted, the quantum of payments that will be impacted, et cetera, et cetera. It's very comprehensive on data, and also gives you Vivek's view on why he feels that there was no need to redo this.
[00:35:39] Abhinandan: So you can read that as well. Um-
[00:35:41] Anupam: Yeah ...
[00:35:42] Abhinandan: now before we let you go, Anupam, since I have you and you are, you know, an expert on economics and affairs that impact the economy, I was wondering if you have any view or take on the entire Tata Sons and Tata Trusts fracas, um, on it going [00:36:00] public. I mean, just to give a little explainer in three lines, uh, the f- the trust, which is a foundation, which is at a not-for-profit company.
[00:36:08] Abhinandan: Basically the entity can be a Section 8 company, which is not-for-profit, or it can be private limited or public limited or, uh, society or a trade union. These are what entities are. Tata Trusts is a foundation. That means it doesn't make any profits, and people who are trustees cannot take any pecuniary benefits, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:36:24] Abhinandan: But this Tata Trusts, all their trusts- own significant chunks of all [00:36:30] Tata companies. And, uh, they have a significant say in Tata Sons, which is a for-profit company, which is a holding company for many of these other which have the shares. And the whole jhagda is that should Tata Sons, which is worth gazillions of rupees, should that be made public, should be a publicly listed company purely because the outsize influence it has on the market, and because maybe Anupam can tell us this license they had applied for, which now they have said we don't want, which would qualify them as a, a [00:37:00] financial institution for which there is compulsory you have to be listed, uh, so you come under more scrutiny and compliance.
[00:37:08] Abhinandan: Yeah. Do you have a take on this entire thing, uh, Anupam?
[00:37:11] Anupam: A very quick take. I've actually not followed it- Mm ... as deeply as I should. Um, but f- for starters, I think this, they've made a completely pig's breakfast of all of this, right? Mm. Um, I find that this is a terrible use of state power. Um, using s- coercive state power to [00:37:30] force whatever company or something to list is just bad economics, bad politics, bad policy, everything.
[00:37:37] Anupam: Yeah. Um, you know, things like ownership structure or, um, whether they're a holding company or it's a shell company or even if they wanna go and, uh, go and relocate to some other tax haven, all of that should be left to the individuals who are making that decision which is best for their own organization, right?
[00:37:54] Anupam: And the shareholders. I think that, uh, or shareholders or stakeholders as the case might be. And I think that is something that you [00:38:00] should not interfere in at all. And the entire shady way that this is being done where y- we know, I mean, or I, I don't think I can say we know, but there's at least very strong suspicion that, um, various meetings have happened, the PMO is pulling the strings.
[00:38:14] Anupam: Mm. They're pulling the strings through SEBI, through RBI. I think the entire, the way that this is done will... Uh, the, the damage of this is quite significant, right? Yeah. Because it further weakens the trust in India as an investment dest- destination if you have [00:38:30] government which is overa- overreaching into private matters such as this.
[00:38:33] Anupam: And- And for me, that is the big damage.
[00:38:35] Abhinandan: Exactly. And also, you know, even if it was an ideal world, I, I believe the state still should not force anyone to go public or private, and we are far from an ideal world because just to give you an idea, and these are completely speculative predictions I'm making, a privately held company that holds significant chunks has very limited...
[00:38:57] Abhinandan: I mean, you can, you know, do bamboo ED kar diya jaise [00:39:00] hum pe, you know, IT, but- Uh, a hostile takeover, for example, and we have seen, uh, you know, shows like Scam 1992, et cetera, et cetera, and those of you who follow the stock market. Even Subhash Chandra mentioned it in his thing key. Yeah. "Mera share tod diya."
[00:39:15] Abhinandan: There is this group of movers and shakers that can drive your share price up and down because a certain billionaire wants to do something to your share or to your company. It is not unusual. It has happened in the past with many companies. So there is a very good [00:39:30] reason someone whose company is held privately does not want to be listed, and there are very compelling reasons for that because of the nature of our share market しくて[00:40:00] [00:40:30] [00:41:00] [00:41:30] [00:42:00]
[00:42:04] Anupam: prosp R局 a଼ DraD1
[00:42:07] Abhinandan: Which rather than simplifying it, it actually-
[00:42:09] Manisha: Yeah, that too, 'cause again, like the varying rates was something that I've ... Had me confused
[00:42:15] Abhinandan: And also actually, uh, you know, MediaNama had a piece on this, um, just four days ago. NPCI's profit declines 32% as BHIM losses widen. So while they are on the balance sheet profitable, you [00:42:30] know, on a current account basis, but it is declining, and eventually it will, I guess, decline to a state where it is not viable.
[00:42:38] Abhinandan: And,
[00:42:38] Anupam: and one final thing, and this is a radical idea I want to throw out, because again, this is something that I've been batting for since 2016. NPCI is, as we said, a private consortium. There is no reason that it should have a monopoly.
[00:42:51] Abhinandan: Mm. Mm. Yeah.
[00:42:52] Anupam: Why should UPI be the only one? Yeah. I want other entities in this game competing with NPCI, you know?
[00:42:59] Anupam: But the only thing that the [00:43:00] RBI or SEBI ... I mean, sorry, RBI need to do is make sure that these are interoperable. So I want to be on, I don't know, uh, API instead of UPI and be able to speak to UPI and then, you know, maybe I get better choices, better offers, better, uh, payment mechanisms, UX, whole bunch of things.
[00:43:18] Abhinandan: Now,
[00:43:18] Anupam: but- So there's no reason why NPCI should be a private monopolist. But, but,
[00:43:21] Abhinandan: but yeah, with that kind of attitude, you won't this mug. That you want options- ... because in, in the spirit of one nation, one fill in the blank- ... [00:43:30] language, leader, payment option, payment mechanism, party It has to be one. Okay? Yeah. So, but thanks Anupam for, for shedding light on this.
[00:43:41] Abhinandan: As always, you are most eloquent and simplify things that are complicated, which I hope our audience appreciates. But before we let you go, and I'm very serious, we're gonna send you this, huh? Our producer- Yes, please ... Amit is going to- ... send you a T-shirt, and you make sure you identify yourself. Uh, and if you were in Delhi we would also send you a baton along with [00:44:00] it to beat yourself up.
[00:44:01] Abhinandan: But since you're not in Delhi, uh, we will not send you that. Uh, but before you go, any recommendation that you think would enrich the lives of our listeners?
[00:44:09] Anupam: Yes, absolutely. And, um, a bit shameless, uh, with this one, but I would like to recommend Fiscal Fables, um, which is a book on public finance simplified by my colleagues, Arthur Pradhan and Pranay Kotasthane.
[00:44:22] Anupam: It's a brilliant book. If anybody wants to understand, well, where your money goes, um, how it is spent, how is it [00:44:30] collected, et cetera, I couldn't recommend a better book. Um, it starts with Gabbar, Robin Hood, whole bunch of things. So it's public finance, but made supremely accessible.
[00:44:39] Abhinandan: So just for our audience, I am interviewing the authors.
[00:44:43] Abhinandan: I'm looking at my, uh, 28th, Monday, is when I'm interviewing the authors. I've already read the book, by the way. Oh. So you can tell them that I'm not such a slacker that I- Because I think some people who saw my interview, Josie wrote that, "You did not finish the book." I was like, "Josie gives it to me today, say I'm coming day after tomorrow."
[00:44:59] Abhinandan: "And I can't [00:45:00] fuck with Josie. He's too senior a journalist." I say, "Okay, I'll quickly go through it." I've read the whole thing, and I do wish there were textbooks like... Is this written with a textbook feel in mind? Because it can be prescribed for economics student. 'Cause I remember when we started economics in school, we were given this- fuck boring book called Man and His Worldly Goods.
[00:45:20] Anupam: Oof,
[00:45:20] Abhinandan: okay. It was, I think, you know, it started off with Adam Smith.
[00:45:23] Anupam: Mm.
[00:45:24] Abhinandan: And then each time I'd say, "Aj economics padhenge," I would read that dense chapter, then I'd say, "Kal [00:45:30] padhenge." Then again, I'd start with chapter one. I'd read that dense kal padhenge. So I knew chapter one by heart and nothing else. This is actually really well-written, so, uh, you can check out the full interview just on that book, uh, which I'll be conducting, uh, week after next.
[00:45:46] Abhinandan: Any other recommendations, Anupam?
[00:45:48] Anupam: No, nothing for now. All right. This is what is keeping me busy.
[00:45:50] Abhinandan: Okay, thanks. Thank you so much. Have a good day and have a great weekend.
[00:45:53] Anupam: Thank you so much. You too. Bye-bye.
[00:45:55] Abhinandan: Bye-bye.
[00:45:55] Manisha: Thank you.
[00:45:56] Abhinandan: And now before we move on to the discussion of the Uniform Civil Code, [00:46:00] I would like to once again remind all our viewers that South Central, the weekly podcast hosted by Dhanya and the News Minute, uh, this week it talks about the risks of AI and the current political scenario in Telangana.
[00:46:14] Abhinandan: You can check it out on both these issues. And in fact, the risks of AI after those initial Anthropic whistleblower, there's a Microsoft dude also- Okay ... yesterday who has come up with another little telltale sign of, you know, [00:46:30] how it went rogue, and four other earlier unmentioned incidents, uh, you know, have occurred u- with AI, so-
[00:46:38] Rinchen: Yeah, something about this, I don't know, like- All these guys coming out of the woodwork at once
[00:46:45] Abhinandan: Hmm, it's too suspicious.
[00:46:47] Rinchen: Too suspicious. So,
[00:46:47] Abhinandan: so in fact, w- I think NPR
[00:46:49] Rinchen: had a- My
[00:46:50] Abhinandan: conspiracy antenna is- NPR had a podcast on this, that basically the fact that Anthropic, and even the tech bro of all tech bros- Yeah ... Elon is saying- Elon Musk ... he'll slow down is because [00:47:00] suddenly they've realized, "Dude, the amount of money we've raised, there is no way we can give a return on this."
[00:47:04] Abhinandan: Yeah. So now they have a moral excuse-
[00:47:08] Rinchen: Yeah ...
[00:47:08] Abhinandan: of going slow.
[00:47:10] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:47:10] Abhinandan: In which case they do not have to either justify their lack of being able to give returns to the- Oh ... billions.
[00:47:16] Anupam: Okay.
[00:47:16] Abhinandan: So now they'll try to figure something out or kick the can down the road.
[00:47:19] Anupam: Yeah.
[00:47:20] Abhinandan: So that ... I, I think this was discussed either on NPR on the Economics, uh, or, or the Unhedged podcast, that this is just an excuse they're using to say, "Boss, ˈhamne paisa le [00:47:30] liya.
[00:47:30] Abhinandan: Dub gaya. We do not know how we monetize this."
[00:47:32] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:47:33] Manisha: That makes sense.
[00:47:34] Rinchen: Because the AI bubble is real. Like, I mean- Of course ... it's, it's like, it could- I- And it, it ... Down the line there's ... If, and if it bursts, like- Mm ... it's gonna hit the global economy like it's 2008 all over again. Yeah.
[00:47:47] Abhinandan: You know? True.
[00:47:48] Rinchen: So, yeah.
[00:47:49] Abhinandan: Um, and before our next guest joins us- Yeah
[00:47:53] Abhinandan: wanna once again remind you, you can get this T-shirt or-
[00:47:59] Rinchen: I'm definitely getting one. [00:48:00]
[00:48:00] Abhinandan: This T-shirt. You should wear
[00:48:01] Manisha: it in the next podcast.
[00:48:03] Abhinandan: Right? Yeah. Next podcast we should all wear this.
[00:48:04] Rinchen: Yes.
[00:48:05] Abhinandan: This T-shirt.
[00:48:06] Manisha: Angry. Our mascot looks angry in this.
[00:48:09] Abhinandan: Mm. Yeah, because he's saying, "Are you?"
[00:48:10] Rinchen: Yeah.
[00:48:11] Abhinandan: You, you don't ask politely, "Are you an urban Naxal?"
[00:48:13] Abhinandan: You ask like that, "Are you an urban Naxal?" No, sorry, ˈDimagi Naxal. And, uh, we have, of course, this mug or this mug, and we have all these things on a subscription. The QR code is here. The link is below. Do subscribe and earn your [00:48:30] Urban Naxal or ˈDimagi Naxal merchandise. So Manisha, while we are, uh, waiting for our next guest to join us, would you like to tell us a little bit about Brazil?
[00:48:38] Abhinandan: The ... You know, the ... I mean, that Brazil has a very- I won't say radical, but a very committed ideological left.
[00:48:47] Song: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:48:48] Abhinandan: And a very committed ideological right. Like, in India- Yeah ... the left or the liber- I mean, it is, other than the Communist Party, is not really committed on their economic ideas.
[00:48:57] Manisha: I mean, left is vibrant, young, it's [00:49:00] visible everywhere.
[00:49:00] Manisha: It's very-
[00:49:00] Abhinandan: And the right there is also pretty significant- Yeah ... with Bolsonaro, you know.
[00:49:04] Manisha: Flávio Bolsonaro, the son now, is basically taking on Lula.
[00:49:07] Abhinandan: Hmm.
[00:49:08] Manisha: Uh, and that's the big... So one thing interesting that I found was, A, that it is a religious country. Uh, religion is important to both left and right.
[00:49:17] Mihira: Hmm.
[00:49:18] Manisha: The difference though is that the left is Catholic, and, uh, the left in the country also used a lot of what they call human, humanist aspects of religion to unite people.[00:49:30]
[00:49:30] Manisha: So a lot of the labor movement, workers movement borrowed from, uh, you know, Bible, borrowed from- Right ... church, but in a Catholic tradition.
[00:49:40] Abhinandan: And, and the attendees of your, uh, you know, the conference you went to, which are by and large journalists, are they, is there a huge, you know, liberal kind of slant to them?
[00:49:50] Abhinandan: Or it's kind of equally represented? I
[00:49:51] Manisha: think where I went was a liberal, uh- Slant ... gathering, yeah. Okay. It was a liberal gathering. And then you have the right in Brazil, which is more again, uh, [00:50:00] religious, but it's Pentecostal churches which are, which are influenced by the US.
[00:50:05] Mihira: Hmm.
[00:50:06] Manisha: So there it's more ritualistic, it's, um, but it's still, I think the big divide actually between the left and right is, one, there, uh, the, there's a sort of a culture war which is similar in the US also.
[00:50:21] Manisha: For example, in India, the right wing, the fear is around the Muslim, the Bangladeshi who will come over. Hmm. There the fear is more about the Christian way of [00:50:30] life in threat because of LGBTQI movements. And, um- The other big rallying point is crime.
[00:50:40] Mihira: Hmm.
[00:50:40] Manisha: So Brazil, uh, has what they call, uh, favelas-
[00:50:45] Mihira: Yeah
[00:50:46] Manisha: which are kind of their slums.
[00:50:48] Mihira: Mm.
[00:50:48] Manisha: Which like any slum area are places of, um, you know, this, that's where a lot of the crime syndicates-
[00:50:55] Mihira: Crime gangs ... operate
[00:50:56] Manisha: from. Mm. And the other big message is that, uh, we are gonna [00:51:00] crack down on crime, and the left has been soft on crime. So pretty much the same accusations that the Congress has faced here, or say, the Samajwadi Party has faced in Uttar Pradesh, that they were hand in glove with- The gangsters
[00:51:10] Manisha: Mukhtar Ansari and all that.
[00:51:11] Anupam: Mm.
[00:51:11] Manisha: So similar sort of narrative is built around there on, uh, you know, on the left, that they are soft on drug syndicate, they are soft on crime syndicates. And US plays a very important role in elections there. Mm. Everything that happens in Latin America happens with US in mind, I think, for...[00:51:30]
[00:51:30] Manisha: I mean, it's really there in people's psyche.
[00:51:31] Song: Mm.
[00:51:32] Manisha: Especially with what happened in Venezuela. So one of the interesting things that I thought was that, uh, the US has declared two of their major crime syndicates as terrorist organizations in the last six months. Mm. Donald Trump called them terrorist organizations.
[00:51:48] Manisha: And the left came in to say that basically once they do that, it gives them an opportunity to enter and meddle in affairs in like the same way they did in Venezuela.
[00:51:58] Abhinandan: And also then Hegset can, like, [00:52:00] shoot off their boats, right? Yeah, yeah. Saying that it is a
[00:52:02] Manisha: terrorist organization. And the right pretty much used that to say that, "Look, they're soft."
[00:52:06] Abhinandan: Mm.
[00:52:07] Manisha: The other thing is also, I think women's rights. Uh, I met a lot of people who felt that Bolsonaro and Bolsonaro's view, some of the things that Bolsonaro himself have said are odious. I think he has three sons and one daughter, and he said in a public speech that the last time, you know, the last time that I conceived my daughter, I was weak.
[00:52:29] Manisha: Mm-hmm. [00:52:30] And so therefore- Are you serious? Yeah. No, wow. Therefore, I gave birth to a daughter because I was, I was not strong enough or I was weak as a man. Wow. So the two big cultural kind of wars are around LGBTQI and also women's rights. Then there are so many women I met at the rally .
[00:52:48] Abhinandan: Who are happy with that?
[00:52:49] Manisha: Yeah, who ... I think it's also got to do with the conservative view of life where religion becomes important and there is that traditional view of thinking of... So they're dealing with so many [00:53:00] difficulties in that sense. Right
[00:53:00] Abhinandan: now we have our next guest who's joined us. Hi, Mihira. Thank you. Hi. Our audience who is a longtime listener of Hafta would know Mihira.
[00:53:09] Abhinandan: She has been on Hafta before, but I will do your official introduction. Uh, Mihira Sue is a Supreme Court lawyer, author, and women's rights advocate. She's written extensively on gender justice, personal laws, civil liberties, and constitutional rights. She is the author of Courting Equality, which examines landmark legal battles that have shaped women's rights in India, [00:53:30] including debates around Uniform Civil Code, Shah Bano, and Sabarimala.
[00:53:34] Abhinandan: Your book was released recently, right?
[00:53:36] Mihira: That's right. Last month.
[00:53:38] Abhinandan: Last month. So you can click on the link and order the book as well, um, s- which I recommend you do. Uh, but thank you for joining us. Um, and just as, uh, good news because one day after Modi's birthday, we are, got these two mugs. This is one, which Naxal are you?
[00:53:55] Abhinandan: And we also have a Dimagi Naxal mug, which we have got, and we have T-shirts [00:54:00] to identify. So we will be sending you one set. You can either wear it yourself or give it to someone who you want to identify. Thank you. So it saves the state time. Uh, so now, um, you know, regarding UCC, which, uh, Mr. Shah has spoken more than once about in the last week And Omar Abdullah, who said that why they bring it through the back door, which is that they say that in every state that is-
[00:54:25] Rinchen: Yeah
[00:54:25] Abhinandan: uh, you know, governed by India, they will bring in a U- Uniform Civil Code. [00:54:30] Uh, so before we get into the merits, demerits, or how will you make a uniform civil code, whose uniform? Uh, you know, you know, the tribes. In fact, Ladakh, we discussed a few episodes ago. Yeah. There are certain parts of Ladakh where polyandry is, you know, acceptable as, as a, a historical, cultural thing.
[00:54:50] Abhinandan: Um, so we'll come to that later, but, uh, Mi- uh, Mehra, could you first distinguish between getting it through parliament as an [00:55:00] act of parliament and getting it through states? What is the distinction?
[00:55:04] Mihira: Oh, um, because you have, uh, schedules in the Constitution, um, where certain subjects are part of the central list, certain subjects are part of the state list, and certain subjects are part of the, what is called the concurrent list.
[00:55:17] Abhinandan: Right.
[00:55:18] Mihira: That either the state or the center can pass laws relating to that as they see fit.
[00:55:23] Abhinandan: Right.
[00:55:24] Mihira: Um, you know, based on the situation in their state. So in that sense, there is a... That, that's [00:55:30] the... That's where you have the... We don't have such a strong federal system as, say, the US where there are so many...
[00:55:37] Mihira: Most subjects come under the states themselves, and there are very few that are central legislations. Um, but, uh, certain subjects are part of the concurrent list.
[00:55:48] Abhinandan: Right. And the UCC will by and large impact personal laws, right? Because things like murder and other violent crimes, it's pretty standard. We already have a common civ- uh, criminal
[00:55:59] Manisha: code
[00:55:59] Mihira: Yeah, the civil [00:56:00] code relates to personal law- So, right
[00:56:01] Mihira: which is family law.
[00:56:02] Abhinandan: Right. So a-
[00:56:03] Mihira: Which is laws relating to marriage, divorce, custody,
[00:56:06] Manisha: and- Inheritance ...
[00:56:06] Abhinandan: inheritance. Inheritance, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So, uh, before you, you know, get into the merits and demerits, one more quick question. So when a case like that comes to the Supreme Court, let's say once it's gone through the process of, you know, a district court, a high court, and the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court will adjudicate based on where that case is from?
[00:56:27] Mihira: Well, the Supreme Court... So, uh, uh, you see [00:56:30] even the, like, you have the Hindu Marriage Act, for example, um, which was, uh, codified, codified Hindu law in the 1950s. Um, and even there you see, uh, that, uh, there's a proviso to many of the sections, you know, where we say, for example, this is the marriage age, or these are the conditions for a valid marriage.
[00:56:52] Mihira: Many of them have these exceptions carved out for customs, uh, widespread, prevalent local [00:57:00] customs, tribes, et cetera, et cetera. So even in adjudicating these, with or without a uniform civil code, the court would be, uh, uh, looking at, uh, those, but, but it doesn't- It doesn't bear much relevance in the present case because they are already excluded from the uniform civil code template that the government is following.
[00:57:21] Abhinandan: Which is what? What is the template that they're following? The
[00:57:23] Mihira: Uttarakhand template.
[00:57:24] Abhinandan: Okay.
[00:57:25] Mihira: Which is basically, uh, the Hindu code.
[00:57:28] Abhinandan: Mm.
[00:57:29] Mihira: [00:57:30] And, um, uh, with, you know, exceptions carved out for tribals and- Yeah ... all of that. And it was first passed in Uttarakhand and since, you know, it's, uh, Gujarat, Assam, Madhya Pradesh, and now they're saying 21 more states.
[00:57:44] Mihira: Um, it is essentially a version of the Hindu code as the Special Marriage Act also was. Mm. The only difference being that, uh, you know, the requirement of both parties being Hindu is not there. Other than that, it's more or less the same. And of course, there is the added [00:58:00] requirement of compulsory registration of live-in relationships.
[00:58:04] Abhinandan: Yeah, which was the most bizarre. We've discussed it at length.
[00:58:06] Mihira: Which is the, which is the most egregious part of it. But I mean, I'll, I'll, uh... See, when it comes to, when it comes to personal laws, one can arguably say that for the most part in India, Hindu law is the most gender equal. Hmm. Not that the bar is very high.
[00:58:29] Rinchen: Mm-hmm. [00:58:30]
[00:58:30] Mihira: Uh, but it, it is... I, I think that's a valid case to make, that Hindu personal law is more gender equal than others because it went... There, there's a history behind it that, you know, in the '50s, uh, uh, you know, when under, uh, Prime Minister Nehru, you had, uh... I mean, that process had been ongoing for a while.
[00:58:49] Manisha: Hmm.
[00:58:50] Mihira: And what happened was it was felt that the Hindu community was in a position where reform could be initiated [00:59:00] without, uh, you know, the, that feeling of vulnerability, um, that minority communities would have faced after par- felt after Partition.
[00:59:08] Abhinandan: Right.
[00:59:09] Mihira: It was felt that after Partition Muslims who chose to stay back were already feeling, you know, vulnerable about their position in the country and where, uh, where would they stand or what would be, uh, what would they be allow- how would they be allowed to live their lives, you know, within their community and as part of this new country, all of that.
[00:59:28] Mihira: So at that time it was felt [00:59:30] that, you know, com- reform ca- does not have to be initiated at the same time for everyone.
[00:59:37] Song: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:38] Mihira: A different community may be ripe for reform at a particular stage and another community may not. And that was upheld by the court also in a pretty disastrous judgment, but it was disastrous for other reasons, and that is the judgment of, uh, Narsu Appa Mali, where the court basically upheld a prohibition on bigamist marriages for [01:00:00] Hindus.
[01:00:00] Mihira: See, the, the state had passed a law saying Hindus cannot contract, Hindu men cannot contract a valid marriage while the first wife, uh, the marri- the marriage to the first wife subsists.
[01:00:11] Abhinandan: Right.
[01:00:12] Mihira: Which is different from Muslim law, which does to this date, though it is exceedingly rarely practiced, but it does to this date permit polygamy.
[01:00:19] Abhinandan: Hmm.
[01:00:20] Mihira: So somebody took it to court, a Hindu man took it to court, Narsu Appa Mali, uh, basically essentially arguing why is he allowed to [01:00:30] be more patriarchal than me? I mean that in e- in essence that in a nutshell, that was his argument. And the court did say that, you know, reform does not have to be, uh, spread out or initiated at the same time for everybody.
[01:00:43] Mihira: But then it went a step further, which was not required, which really haunts us to this day, which is to say that personal laws, um, are exempt from fundamental rights scrutiny.
[01:00:53] Manisha: Hmm. Yeah.
[01:00:55] Abhinandan: I see. Okay.
[01:00:57] Mihira: So it, it, it, you know, it protected women [01:01:00] in that judgment, but doing it in a way that really shackled women to the confines of religion and the gender inequities present in religion, in all religions, uh, you know, till now.
[01:01:12] Abhinandan: So, uh, before I open to the rest of the panel, one more quick question. Will... I mean, I, I don't know if, uh, Mr. Shah has articulated it or is there a plan. Will it s- be the same in all the states or will they have to kind of change it in every state because there are certain customs? For example, [01:01:30] like this whole, whole myth of you being able to, you know, marry your cousin is only an Islamic thing.
[01:01:35] Abhinandan: In, uh, Tamil Brahmins it is- Yeah ... standard practice.
[01:01:38] Rinchen: Yeah.
[01:01:39] Abhinandan: You know, that is just how, you know, weddings are set up. So... And I've see all sorts of commentary around that, that it is a Muslim thing, clearly by people in the Hindi belt- Mm ... who have no idea of the South. Um, will, will, will that have to be different in every state?
[01:01:57] Abhinandan: Ladakh, you know, there are certain customs that are practiced [01:02:00] which may not be there in Bihar, or have they kind of suggested it'll be the same in all the states or it'll be different for each state?
[01:02:06] Mihira: Well, n- now this is up to the state.
[01:02:08] Abhinandan: Right. Okay.
[01:02:09] Mihira: And this is not, uh, really, uh, I'm assuming... Uh, see, right now anyway it's only coming in BJP ruled states.
[01:02:15] Abhinandan: Yeah, b- but which means it's not up to the state, it's up to the two men on top.
[01:02:18] Mihira: But, yeah, I mean, I mean, the, the example of, uh, Tamil Nadu that you gave then doesn't apply-
[01:02:23] Abhinandan: Right ...
[01:02:23] Mihira: for, you know, uh- Okay ... this is only going to come in in BJP ruled states. Over there, I think one can [01:02:30] likely say that unless there is...
[01:02:32] Mihira: I, I mean, I'm speculating here. Sure. But unless there is serious, uh, electoral risk, it's likely to be the same template.
[01:02:40] Abhinandan: Right.
[01:02:41] Manisha: As Uttarakhand, basically.
[01:02:42] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:02:43] Mihira: Yeah.
[01:02:43] Abhinandan: So but, but Manisha, b- but if, you know, on the technical aspects, would you say at least on this- Narendra Modi can claim with a fair amount of accuracy that he has fulfilled what I [01:03:00] personally may find completely useless promises, but he has fulfilled them because there's political capital to be gained, which is the temple, which is Article 370-
[01:03:07] Manisha: And uniform
[01:03:07] Abhinandan: civil
[01:03:07] Abhinandan: which is uniform civil code. If they do that, he can go back and say, "These were our main-"
[01:03:13] Rinchen: Ideological projects ...
[01:03:14] Abhinandan: projects which we have fulfilled. Yeah.
[01:03:16] Manisha: They can say that, but then is it really uniform if it's 21 states, and then within those states there are differences, like tribals are exempt. So if we're really talking about a uniform civil law that governs [01:03:30] marriages, inheritance, then it's not really uniform.
[01:03:33] Manisha: Mm-hmm. Because there's gonna be a few states, and like Meera said, it's gonna depend on the states.
[01:03:37] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:37] Manisha: And I think from what we've seen in Uttarakhand, the focus on registering of live-in marriages and, uh, sorry, live-in relationships- Relationships ... and, uh, interfaith relationships. That's been the big headline point in Uttarakhand.
[01:03:52] Manisha: There is no conversation around what has really happened in terms of alimony or divorce or inheritance. The big thing is, [01:04:00] let us look at whether women are marrying into other religions, and h- have they registered it? Are their parents okay with it? And- And
[01:04:05] Abhinandan: your team had done a story on how that leads to harassment because they put it up, and then those-
[01:04:09] Manisha: Yeah
[01:04:10] Abhinandan: right-wing goons reach their homes. Yeah.
[01:04:12] Manisha: But I wanted to ask Meera one thing, that, you know, like, it's such a polarized debate where, like you said, one can rightly argue that there is a need to have laws. I mean, it is desirable in a society that when you're looking at marriages, inheritance, divorce, you know, to have a common [01:04:30] law.
[01:04:30] Manisha: And for various reasons in history, we've not had it because precisely like you said, after partition, minorities felt that they're going to... Their way of life would be under attack in a majority, you know, uh, faith. But, and then there is the other side to it that where we clearly see with examples like Uttarakhand, that the focus uniform civil code becomes a dog whistle to actually police women's choices.
[01:04:56] Mihira: Yeah.
[01:04:56] Manisha: So how do you see it resolved? I mean, as, as somebody who studied [01:05:00] this, what is the way out where we actually ensure justice for women across religions, and also ensure minorities feeling, like, it's not being done to single them out? Like, is there even a way out of this?
[01:05:16] Mihira: Okay. First of all, you know, I actually- Support the idea, the idea of a uniform civil code.
[01:05:27] Manisha: Hmm.
[01:05:28] Mihira: So, I mean, that is one thing. [01:05:30] I do think it's a good idea, not, uh, not just for feminism, not just for women's equality, which is, you know, it's treated terribly across all religions. That's, that's a fact. But also for, uh, secularism. I, I mean, you know the idea for one, that you are born into a certain faith rather than it's something you choose, uh, you know, on your, from your own conscience.
[01:05:57] Mihira: That has never sat well with me and the, I mean, the, [01:06:00] the entire system of religion-based personal laws determines your faith based on your parentage.
[01:06:06] Song: Hmm.
[01:06:07] Mihira: It kind of, it treats, uh, interfaith marriages or children of mixed marriages, you know, all of these questions get extremely muddied with a personal law system.
[01:06:21] Mihira: What I have a problem with is this particular type of uniform civil code because it is not based in secularism, and it is not based in [01:06:30] feminism. It undermines both the goals. You know, uniform civil code was actually a demand of feminist groups till the '80s, till you had the rise of, you know, the Hindu right.
[01:06:40] Mihira: The feminist groups, the left liberal feminist groups were the ones at the forefront of the uniform civil code demanded, and they, they still... You know, it- it's not that they no longer see it as a good idea, it's just that they've distanced themselves from it, um, in the current environment because they see how it is used as a fig leaf for [01:07:00] Islamophobia.
[01:07:00] Song: Hmm.
[01:07:00] Mihira: And it is used as a fig leaf for, um, infantilizing women, policing their choices. So there is a certain... Optimistically, I would like to see even this uniform civil code template, hopefully... Okay, I, I would like to see firstly the Supreme Court strike down the entire part on live-in relationships.
[01:07:21] Anupam: Hmm.
[01:07:22] Mihira: That's one. Because I think that is blatantly unconstitutional As for the rest of it, which is [01:07:30] basically a almost copy-paste of the existing Hindu code, um, I would like to see that optimistically as a, the beginning of a conversation on a secular feminist civil law rather than the end of it. Now, whether or not that is something that can actually happen, one doesn't know.
[01:07:49] Mihira: But what... In order to achieve that, we have to move beyond looking at Hindu law even as our starting point because there are n- we should [01:08:00] really be looking at the more progressive aspects of personal laws in all communities, in all communities personal laws in India, and there are many, many situations where Muslim personal law is far more progressive-
[01:08:13] Abhinandan: Mm
[01:08:13] Mihira: to my mind. Such as? Than, uh, for example, treating divorce, uh, marriage as a contract- Mm ... that can be easily dissolved by divorce. It really de-stigmatizes divorce-
[01:08:23] Abhinandan: Mm ...
[01:08:23] Mihira: in Muslim community in a way that, you know, Hindu law which treats marriage as a sacrament.
[01:08:27] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:08:28] Mihira: You know, you are together for seven [01:08:30] lives. Mm.
[01:08:30] Mihira: It's not a contract. The, you know, the Muslim, uh, under Muslim law, you practically have... And of course, a person's bargaining power in this is, a lot of this is on paper.
[01:08:42] Abhinandan: Sure.
[01:08:42] Mihira: Not a lot of people have the bargaining power to- But it exists.
[01:08:45] Abhinandan: It's, it's there
[01:08:46] Mihira: But it exists. You effectively have something like a prenup.
[01:08:49] Mihira: You have listed out what a woman will receive in situations of divorce. Um, you have, you have... And this is [01:09:00] the biggest, biggest problem in personal laws today, and it remains a problem in Hindu law, that even though you have had two rounds of reform, you know, in, in the 1950s and in the 2000s that allowed daughters equal share as sons.
[01:09:21] Mihira: Now, that is more progressive in Hindu law than others. Mm. But it also allows, that is only if a person dies without a will.
[01:09:28] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:09:29] Mihira: That [01:09:30] inheritance law only kicks in if a person dies without a will, right?
[01:09:34] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:09:36] Mihira: Or it applies to ancestral property. A person's self-acquired property For which he has made a will can easily be willed away entirely to the son.
[01:09:48] Mihira: To
[01:09:48] Manisha: the son, yeah.
[01:09:50] Mihira: And that is what happens. Ever since these amendment- But can
[01:09:51] Abhinandan: it also be willed, but can it also be willed away to the daughter?
[01:09:53] Manisha: Yeah.
[01:09:54] Mihira: It can.
[01:09:55] Manisha: Either
[01:09:55] Mihira: of them. It can, but that's not what happens. You'll see what's happening ever since these amendments have come in, [01:10:00] because there is this mindset that, oh, she's going to get something, she's married, she's now part of another family.
[01:10:05] Mihira: She'll get double. Why should she get? We've given her enough gifts at the time of wedding.
[01:10:09] Abhinandan: Hmm.
[01:10:09] Mihira: We've given her dowry. So this is how inheritance and dowry are linked.
[01:10:12] Abhinandan: Okay, one, one quick question-
[01:10:13] Mihira: Even though, even though-
[01:10:15] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm ...
[01:10:15] Mihira: you have no guarantee that her marriage will last, you have no guarantee how she'll be treated in her matrimonial home, you have no guarantee what she will receive as inheritance from there.
[01:10:24] Mihira: If at all, yeah. But ever since these amendments have come in, you have seen a wide inc- a big [01:10:30] increase in people, in Hindu patriarchs making wills in order to, uh, evade this equal protection. Under Muslim law, women do not receive equally as a s- daughters do not receive equally as sons, but there is a limit to how much her inheritance can be willed away
[01:10:49] Abhinandan: I see.
[01:10:49] Abhinandan: Okay
[01:10:49] Mihira: So one, you know, one should really... There's, the, it's very interesting. And then of course one should even look abroad to see what are the best practices being followed. Yeah, which
[01:10:58] Abhinandan: is what I want to ask. That- Yeah ... is there a template we can- [01:11:00] By looking at religion ... 'cause con- on so many other things we go with a template that has been argued, debated, including the concept of democracy, you know.
[01:11:08] Abhinandan: Um, and come up with, okay, they have come so far even in, uh, regulat- regulatory framework around broadcast. We did not invent it. We took a template from other countries that are way more-
[01:11:20] Mihira: Our entire constitute, constituent assembly debates we looked at- Exact- ... so many different countries
[01:11:25] Abhinandan: constitution ... so, so is there a country that has the equivalent of u- uniform civil code?
[01:11:28] Mihira: Most countries, most, [01:11:30] uh, developed, like Western democracies do not really follow, uh, personal, religion-based personal laws. What they follow is a more minimalist kind of, uh-
[01:11:38] Abhinandan: But they, I mean, they do have carve-outs. I mean, I mean, I don't know about others, but 'cause I've recommended that podcast on something as basic as the right to fish or hunt or nature in the US, uh, or even in Canada if you are, uh, a native Inuit, which is the politically correct term for what used to be called Eskimos, which is a racist term, or a native, uh, you know, American, uh, [01:12:00] you do not need a permit for hunting, or you don't need...
[01:12:02] Abhinandan: Or there are certain parts for fishing you have to have an indigenous partner- Yeah ... in order to get a permit to fish in those waters. So there are carve-outs on basic rights of the resources around you in other countries as well.
[01:12:17] Mihira: Well, we have, yeah, like we have, uh, restrictions on buying property in, uh, hilly regions.
[01:12:22] Abhinandan: Right. So that, so that will not be- That could be
[01:12:24] Mihira: similar to that. That's not really based on-
[01:12:26] Abhinandan: So
[01:12:26] Mihira: that- But you have some carve-outs, for example, you do [01:12:30] have carve-outs, uh, like I know in, uh, in the US. The US is very complicated because pretty much each state does its own thing.
[01:12:37] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:12:38] Mihira: In most respects. But I know that you have carve-outs, uh, for example, in adoption.
[01:12:43] Abhinandan: Right. Yes.
[01:12:44] Mihira: Uh, uh, like, uh, you know, uh, to... What is the time period in which an adoptive mother can, uh, uh... Sorry, the, the mother who has agreed to the adoption. Mm. There's a specific time period in which she can change her [01:13:00] mind after the child is born.
[01:13:01] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:13:02] Mihira: And you have to, the adoptive parents have to wait for that time period to be over, and I know that in case of Native Americans, that time period is increased.
[01:13:09] Abhinandan: Yep.
[01:13:10] Mihira: So there are small, small carve-outs like that, but basic rights like what is a valid marriage? What alimony do you get?
[01:13:18] Abhinandan: And inheritance, yeah.
[01:13:20] Mihira: Inheritance, of course, there is much more individual agency in terms of... See, and this is why inheritance is a tricky question.
[01:13:27] Abhinandan: Yeah.
[01:13:27] Mihira: Because it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, [01:13:30] controversial to say that there should be restrictions on your ability to will away your self-acquired property.
[01:13:35] Mihira: Somebody may want to give it away to a charity. Somebody may want to give it to their son. Somebody may want to give it all to their daughter. Mm. Somebody may want to give it all to one daughter and say the other one is useless. She doesn't ta- take care of me There is a strong argument for that much to be your personal choice.
[01:13:51] Mihira: And in a lot of, uh, you know, Western countries, I mean, that is what is followed. The point is, and this is my opinion here [01:14:00] That where there is such a pressing need for social reform, sometimes that choice has to be limited. That agency has to be limited in the larger interest. And I mean- Mm ... I've written about...
[01:14:12] Mihira: There's another issue where, you know, I've written about in my book. The right to abortion, which is such a, a lightning rod topic in the US, not so much here. But the problem, one of the problems with very, um, uh, free access to abortion [01:14:30] in countries where there is such a strong preference, son preference- Mm
[01:14:34] Mihira: is that you kind of open the doors for sex selective abortions.
[01:14:37] Manisha: Yeah.
[01:14:39] Mihira: So how do you balance those? Obviously, women should have full reproductive agency. Yeah. But can that reproductive agency be used for sex selective abortions? Now then, obviously there has to be some, some line that is drawn as to what, to what extent that agency can be exercised.
[01:14:59] Mihira: Even if that [01:15:00] means, um, you know, uh, interfering with somebody's, uh, you know, uh, somebody's, uh, individual choice i- in the most basic- Yeah.
[01:15:09] Abhinandan: About their own bodies, right? ... individual choice. That, I think- Even sex
[01:15:10] Mihira: selection is such a normal thing abroad But it was in a, in a, the larger social reform.
[01:15:13] Rinchen: Yeah.
[01:15:14] Abhinandan: Yeah.
[01:15:14] Abhinandan: Sure.
[01:15:15] Mihira: So I
[01:15:15] Rinchen: think inheritance- The gender reveal parties involved ... is one of those
[01:15:16] Abhinandan: things. Yeah. Rinchen?
[01:15:18] Rinchen: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think let's stop, let's stop calling it Uniform Civil Code. There's nothing uni- It's not uniform ... there's nothing uniform about this. I mean, in the way f-... Like Uttarakhand, for example, I mean, there's [01:15:30] literally a s- section 2 of the Uth- Uttarakhand UCC exempts tribal groups- Mm
[01:15:34] Rinchen: entirely-
[01:15:35] Mihira: Mm ...
[01:15:35] Rinchen: from this Uniform Civil Code. So I think what it tells you and the, sort of coming back to the strategy of going state by state, you know, that instead of passing one uniform law. Clearly the BJP, even though they, it's, uh, BJP and their allies are in power in about 21 of the 28 states currently right now.
[01:15:54] Rinchen: Um, clearly I don't think they, they feel like they have the necessary political capital to push [01:16:00] a UCC in its sort of, in, in, in a, in a genuine form in any way because all these carve-outs that are already happening. Um, so that is one. Let's just stop calling it Uniform Civil Code 'cause I think- Mm ... that creates its own sort of, uh, this thing.
[01:16:17] Rinchen: But I would like to ask Mihir about, uh, the issue of, uh, inheritance. I think the whole thing about, uh, you know, polygamy and all of that, I think those are s- it's a, it's a red herring as far, as far as I'm [01:16:30] concerned. I mean, it's overstated. It's, it's part of like their sort of... It's a culture war thing for- Mm
[01:16:34] Rinchen: the Hindu right here personally. That's my opinion of it. Because, uh, interestingly, I fi- I've, through, while I was researching on this last night, I found that Goa, under the Go- Goa Civil Code, a Hindu man can, uh, is permitted to practice bigamy or second marriage under certain specific conditions.
[01:16:51] Abhinandan: Hmm. And in fact, if you go back to the- Yeah
[01:16:53] Abhinandan: debates in parliament, the Hindu right's favorite Sardar Patel- Yeah ... had actually, he and [01:17:00] his faction-
[01:17:00] Rinchen: Yeah ...
[01:17:01] Abhinandan: had supported that Indian men, Hindu men should be allowed to have multiple wives even if, even the Hindu ones, so.
[01:17:07] Rinchen: Yeah. So I mean, first-
[01:17:08] Mihira: Because, uh, because, uh, a- as, uh, our friend Narsu Appamali said in the court- Yeah
[01:17:13] Mihira: it is a requirement of Hinduism to have a son. If my wife is unable to give me a son, I should be allowed to. Exactly.
[01:17:17] Rinchen: Mm. Right. So because- I agree ... so that, that Goa civil code for example, a Hindu husband may legally marry again if his wife fails to deliver a child by the age of 25. Wow. Like, there's some, some, some, some whack-a-mole [01:17:30] provisions.
[01:17:30] Rinchen: His permanent marriage, a second wife if the wife fails to deliver a male child by the age of 30. So there are some like really, where-
[01:17:38] Manisha: This
[01:17:38] Rinchen: exists? It's Goa civil code, uh, this thing, so. Male
[01:17:41] Manisha: child. So,
[01:17:41] Rinchen: like, what I'm saying is this whole bigamy, this whole polygamy thing is like, first it's a red herring, it's overstated.
[01:17:46] Rinchen: Yeah. But what I would like to ask Behera- The,
[01:17:48] Mihira: the, the meat of the issue is inheritance.
[01:17:50] Rinchen: Inheritance, exactly. This is what I want
[01:17:52] Mihira: to ask. Dispersant.
[01:17:52] Rinchen: Yeah.
[01:17:53] Mihira: That is... So I mean, you really hit upon it because that is, first of all, if we are talking about a uniform [01:18:00] civil code, then the Hindu undivided family as a tax saving mechanism, that the government is not interfering with.
[01:18:09] Mihira: Hindu's ability to will away their property and all their estate away from their daughters. The, the day the government brings in something to really protect daughter's inheritance, re- I mean, not, not on paper, but in fact, that day I will say, "Okay, you know what? Your intentions were good." [01:18:30]
[01:18:30] Rinchen: Yeah.
[01:18:30] Mihira: Mm. Because that, I mean, that is the meat...
[01:18:34] Mihira: You know, you, you see s- all the violence against women today, I've always maintained, and I urge you all to read my book also. Um, I have always maintained that violence against women is just a product of inequality. Mm. And that inequality comes fr- in so many ways, big and small, and the, um, lack of financial resources, whether it is income-
[01:18:59] Song: Yeah[01:19:00]
[01:19:00] Mihira: and income is its own tricky thing because of course there are many other obligations that may prevent, uh, or, or many, uh, restrictions that may prevent a woman from earning a suitable income. But whether it is from income or whether it is from inherited resources, but that lack of resources that a woman has really drives violence.
[01:19:19] Mihira: You know, the entire culture of dowry-
[01:19:22] Brazil: Mm ...
[01:19:22] Mihira: is so closely interlinked with a woman's, um, uh, inability to inherit from her natal [01:19:30] family and the entire severance of a woman from her natal family in law Um, it, that impunity comes from the fact that she has nowhere to go. That impunity comes from the fact that her parents will not take her back
[01:19:42] Abhinandan: There's no real estate in her name- Yeah
[01:19:43] Abhinandan: which says, "This is my real estate." Yeah. "This is my castle," right?
[01:19:47] Mihira: I mean, her, her own brother and sister-in-law will not want her to come back. Mm. Because the entire system is set up to sever her from her natal family and make her somebody else's caregiver.
[01:19:57] Brazil: Mm. Mm.
[01:19:58] Mihira: And that's the, that's the setup. [01:20:00] And then, so it, it lends this, uh, kind of impunity to all manner of matrimonial cruelty and violence within the matrimonial home, which thrives on her inability to leave.
[01:20:12] Mihira: Mm. Domestic violence, all the rest of it. And, you know, the... then the, the, the idea that she is dependent on them, uh, her children are dependent on them because the laws do not recognize a legal relationship between even them and the maternal side. I see. Everything [01:20:30] comes down the patrilineal side. Mm. So, you know, you, I- if you, if you really insulate or, uh, sorry, um, if you equalize inheritance, it is the biggest thing one can do for gender equality in this country.
[01:20:44] Mihira: I-
[01:20:44] Abhinandan: is, is that because in all Hindu mythology, the mama is always the evil guy? The, there's a, where Shakuni mama- ... Kansa mama. All the horrible guys who did wrong to the gods are mamas. Did any chacha, like, screw anyone over?
[01:20:59] Manisha: But what's [01:21:00] that got to do with inheritance?
[01:21:00] Abhinandan: Because the maternal side, no? The father's side- Oh, God
[01:21:02] Abhinandan: will stick by you, the maternal side will try to kill you.
[01:21:05] Manisha: No.
[01:21:05] Abhinandan: I don't know. But I, I'm just trying to think. But one
[01:21:07] Manisha: also- '
[01:21:08] Abhinandan: Cause all, all, all the mamas- On
[01:21:09] Mihira: the other hand, on the other hand, in your so-called matrilineal societies that are supposed to be so much more gender equal, what you then have is a situation where a woman is forced to marry her mama so that it still goes down the men in the family.
[01:21:22] Abhinandan: It's the same, yeah. Right. Okay. Mm. So it's the men in the family.
[01:21:24] Mihira: That's the reality-
[01:21:25] Abhinandan: Mm ...
[01:21:25] Mihira: of matrilineal societies in India.
[01:21:28] Abhinandan: Uh, and, and you [01:21:30] foresee this UCC being challenged in the Supreme Court across states? At
[01:21:33] Mihira: least on live-in relationships, yes.
[01:21:36] Abhinandan: I see. Okay.
[01:21:37] Mihira: Other parts, because it is so similar to laws that already exist, whether it is the Hindu Marriage Act or the, um, Hindu Code, or the Special Marriage Act, I don't really see much challenge there
[01:21:51] Abhinandan: I see
[01:21:51] Mihira: Because people generally are already living with it.
[01:21:54] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
[01:21:56] Mihira: Um, and I... But on the, the live-in relationships [01:22:00] registration, and it's not just registration, it's actually permission seeking.
[01:22:04] Abhinandan: Because
[01:22:04] Mihira: the registration- Also when you break up also you have
[01:22:06] Abhinandan: to report. You have to report if you've broken up. If
[01:22:07] Mihira: you break up you have to report it. I
[01:22:09] Abhinandan: can imagine. What is that?
[01:22:11] Abhinandan: Situationship
[01:22:13] Manisha: you'll have to tell.
[01:22:14] Mihira: I mean, it's called- How many people today?
[01:22:15] Manisha: It's called We're not really sure.
[01:22:18] Mihira: So, um, um, uniform civil code, the, at least the kind of uniform civil code that I'm in favor of is far more minimalist. You know, it lays down certain minimum, uh, uh, standards that have to be met [01:22:30] when it comes to divorce, inheritance, alimony, maintenance, all of that.
[01:22:35] Mihira: Certain basic rules. But it, it, it is less interfering code. I mean, that's, that's ideally how it should be, something that lays down a minimum standard that anybody in any community has to meet. But it should, it, it is... So to that extent I support it and, uh, but this kind of thing that doesn't, that takes the, uh, doesn't do that and it, it's overly interfering and it takes Hindu [01:23:00] law as the beginning and end of equality, when there is so much else we can be looking at and incorporating, uh, from around, around the country and around the world.
[01:23:10] Mihira: And, you know, there I think it's a-
[01:23:12] Abhinandan: Right. Thank you so much- It's- ... Mihira for, um, giving us clarity on this. Really appreciate it, and I recommend to our listeners again, the link is in the show notes to check out her recently released book. But before we say goodbye to you, do you have any recommendation that could [01:23:30] enrich the lives of our listeners and viewers?
[01:23:32] Abhinandan: A show of- Can I say my book again? Yes, you can say your book again. So
[01:23:37] Mihira: it, it looks at the last, uh, 50 years actually. I've taken the last 50 years since the 1970s, um, looking at the women's movement decade by decade and covering family law, covering the politics of the time, kind of situating it in the politics of the decade.
[01:23:53] Song: Mm-hmm.
[01:23:53] Mihira: Um, uh, covering, um, uh, workplace, uh, harassment, [01:24:00] um, free speech and how that is, you know, something that is so useful to women and minorities, but is often also weaponized against them.
[01:24:08] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:24:08] Mihira: And trying to find a way to balance that, as well as the, uh, you know, um, constitutional morality and Sabarimala debate.
[01:24:16] Mihira: Because Sabarimala, to my mind, is one of the most consequential litigations. Mm. It's really not just about temple entry. I think it really goes to the heart of where we place women's rights in the context of faith and tradition. Um, [01:24:30] so, and I think it's, uh, it's written s- particularly it's written for non-lawyers.
[01:24:34] Mihira: Hmm. So I think it'll be, uh, good. Um, I also have a great movie that I saw this week that I want to recommend.
[01:24:41] Abhinandan: Yes.
[01:24:42] Mihira: And, uh, that is called Last Man in Tower.
[01:24:45] Abhinandan: Hmm. Okay. I haven't
[01:24:46] Mihira: heard of that. It's based on, uh, Last Man in Tower. Yeah, do. It should be out on OTT soon unfortunately. I don't think it got, uh ... It, it's a small movie.
[01:24:54] Mihira: Uh-
[01:24:55] Abhinandan: You watched a pirated version as a lawyer?
[01:24:56] Mihira: Absolutely wonderful.
[01:24:57] Abhinandan: You're telling me you watched a pirated version as a lawyer? [01:25:00]
[01:25:01] Mihira: No, I said OTT.
[01:25:02] Abhinandan: You said it'll be out on OTT soon, but so where did you watch it?
[01:25:06] Mihira: Uh, it, it is there in a couple of halls. I think it is there in Noida. Oh,
[01:25:09] Abhinandan: it's in cinemas. Okay, got
[01:25:10] Mihira: it.
[01:25:10] Mihira: Didn't get a wide release.
[01:25:12] Abhinandan: I see. Okay.
[01:25:13] Mihira: That's- Unfortunately. It's based on Arvind Adiga's, uh, uh, book, Last Man in Tower. White Tiger. I
[01:25:18] Abhinandan: said,
[01:25:18] Mihira: okay. Same.
[01:25:18] Abhinandan: Okay, got it. Ah.
[01:25:19] Mihira: And it's, uh, you know, uh, it's set in Bombay, high rise complex, uh, uh, sorry, apartment complex being demolished, and one man who really wants to hold on to it- Mm-hmm
[01:25:29] Mihira: against all [01:25:30] odds.
[01:25:30] Abhinandan: Hmm.
[01:25:30] Mihira: Um, and it's really a really beautiful, wonderful film with Manoj Bajpayee. Divya
[01:25:36] Abhinandan: Dutta Wow, I haven't heard of it. Interesting. Yeah. Okay.
[01:25:38] Mihira: Do check it out. It's really wonderful.
[01:25:40] Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Mehera. Thank
[01:25:41] Mihira: you.
[01:25:42] Abhinandan: Have a great weekend. Thank you. Bye-bye.
[01:25:43] Mihira: Thank you. Bye.
[01:25:44] Abhinandan: And now before we wind up the episode, reminding you again, this mug can be yours, and this mug can be yours.
[01:25:53] Abhinandan: This T-shirt can be yours. This T-shirt can be yours. Subscription can be yours. Uh, emails for the [01:26:00] week. Yes. You can mail us at [email protected]. I repeat, [email protected]. You can click on the link in the show notes below. Please keep your emails below 150 words, or we have to use AI, the much reviled AI-
[01:26:14] Song: Hmm.
[01:26:14] Abhinandan: Great ... to compress them into 150 words, so we can include as many as possible.
[01:26:18] Manisha: Okay.
[01:26:19] Abhinandan: Yes, Manisha, please go ahead.
[01:26:20] Manisha: So first email is from Dheeraj, says, "Hi there. I found a small little problem with the discussion of the rise of the right wing in Europe last Hafta. There was no mention of the amount of [01:26:30] money put in by the wacko tech billionaires into these parties.
[01:26:33] Manisha: That is the only reason for the rise. No money, no rise, as simple as that. A crypto billionaire just has £36 million to reform-" To reform ... just has donated or put in money. In
[01:26:44] Abhinandan: fact, two billionaires did, and the total they've got is 100 million.
[01:26:47] Manisha: Which is bigger than Labour's election budget for 2024. Yeah. At the same time, I would encourage you to see how the media here has also gone after the reform for alleged donations from the US.
[01:26:57] Manisha: Reform has slumped in the polls, but this latest [01:27:00] donation may well help them be back on their feet. Small little big problem, pun intended. I have not heard anything in Hafta on this IAS officer cracking down on health and safety in Mumbai. Not worth reporting?
[01:27:11] Abhinandan: Oh, Dheeraj, well, I saw that. Uh, Tukaram, uh-
[01:27:15] Rinchen: Monde is his
[01:27:15] Abhinandan: name
[01:27:15] Abhinandan: is his name, right? Yeah. So in fact, he even sealed, uh, uh, Mondegar the kitchen, which is- Yeah ... and a few others. So, I mean, yeah, honestly, maybe if we were based in Bombay, it'd be a bigger story. But yeah, this, [01:27:30] um, I saw it, and I saw that, I think there were some courts also who had some words to say to him.
[01:27:36] Song: Hmm.
[01:27:36] Abhinandan: Uh, but Manisha, any... You haven't been here, so you wouldn't know.
[01:27:40] Manisha: No, no, I know, uh- ... because precisely because of this Mondegar thing went viral- Yeah ... and he, uh, issued notices to some 10,000 entities. Hmm. But, uh, it was well reported. I think, like, if we cover stories of, A, A, we're not stationed in Bombay, so it's always something to think of, but we would cover it if there was something deep [01:28:00] dive investigative to do from a city that we're not in, if we invest that time.
[01:28:03] Manisha: But
[01:28:03] Abhinandan: I do think that, you know, if the presence of cockroaches and rats in kitchens can shut a kitchen down-
[01:28:09] Anupam: Hmm ...
[01:28:11] Abhinandan: having shot a show like Have No Plate over eight, nine years, and-
[01:28:16] Manisha: All places will be shut down ... um,
[01:28:18] Abhinandan: I, I must done a total of maybe 250 episodes of food shows, uh, over eight years. So there's not a single significant city that I haven't been in [01:28:30] 80% of this country's restaurants would be closed.
[01:28:33] Abhinandan: Yeah. I mean, I-- What I'm saying is that- Rats
[01:28:36] Manisha: toh nahi honge, cockroaches are still...
[01:28:39] Abhinandan: Dude,
[01:28:41] Manisha: see not- Rats is bad. That's
[01:28:42] Abhinandan: like
[01:28:43] Manisha: filth ... but,
[01:28:43] Abhinandan: but they are very common. I mean, you, you don't realize just how common they are. You think not every restaurant is the fancy one that has elevator music playing when you walk in, no?
[01:28:52] Abhinandan: Like 90% of restaurants in our country are the ones where you can get a meal between 400 to 800 rupees. Those [01:29:00] restaurants are in places where you, you can't keep rats out. I mean, g- I'm sure government granaries have rats in them, yeah.
[01:29:08] Rinchen: I mean, for me, personally, I, you know, I am glad that at least some attention is being sort of given to f- food and health safety, which is, I mean, in a pitiable state in this country- Mm-hmm
[01:29:23] Rinchen: uh, across rest- whether it's restaurants, whether it's food products, whether anything. Like it's, um... [01:29:30] The fact that a light is being shone on that is great. Yeah. But I'm also a little sort of, um, skeptical by the sort of, sort of this valorization of this IAS officer who's on this mission to-
[01:29:41] Abhinandan: Ye band karo, wo
[01:29:42] Rinchen: band karo
[01:29:42] Rinchen: ye band karo, wo band karo. I am not a big fan of that because ultimately all these IAS officers, they work within a particular system. Sure. So yeah, for now he's being let loose and he's doing his job, whatever. You don't know where it will go, yeah. You don't know where this will go. Um, so I'm [01:30:00] gonna like wait and watch brief on this Mm-hmm
[01:30:03] Rinchen: before I'm, you know, before I really have a-
[01:30:05] Abhinandan: Sure ...
[01:30:05] Rinchen: position to take. Sajeev
[01:30:07] Manisha: says, I really like this letter. Mm. Yeah. Says, "Hi Anil, I've been trying to recommend News Laundry to colleagues and friends, but I've realized that I struggle to answer a simple question. What has News Laundry actually changed?
[01:30:18] Manisha: Perhaps it's time for a program along the lines of News Laundry talks about News Laundry." "A candid look back at News Laundry since its ascept- since its inception, what you set out to change, what you believe you've [01:30:30] actually changed, your most significant investigations and interventions, the impact you had on the wider news ecosystem, and perhaps even where you feel you fell short.
[01:30:37] Manisha: Rather than another discussion about the news, it could be an opportunity to step back and examine News Laundry itself, its journey, achievements, failures, impact on Indian journalism and society. I think such an episode would also give your listeners a much better answer to the question, why does News Laundry matter?"
[01:30:52] Abhinandan: What a fantastic idea, Sanjeev.
[01:30:54] Manisha: Regards, Sajeev. Sajeev. Sajeev, not Sanjeev. Sorry, Sajeev. Sajeev from a tiny part of Kerala.
[01:30:59] Abhinandan: This is a [01:31:00] fantastic idea. In fact, we should do this on our fif- Yeah, it's a really
[01:31:01] Manisha: nice idea ...
[01:31:02] Abhinandan: uh, 27, we are 15th year, no? We turn 15. Do
[01:31:04] Manisha: saal
[01:31:06] Abhinandan: baad
[01:31:09] Manisha: karenge. 27, do saal nahi. Agle saal. Agle saal.
[01:31:10] Manisha: 15 saal
[01:31:10] Abhinandan: mein kar lenge. Wahi toh bol raha, we'll be 15 and-
[01:31:13] Manisha: Ha. Yeah. Yeah, then you can do it.
[01:31:15] Abhinandan: I could see the wheels moving in Mihir's head that 15 years hoga ki nahi.
[01:31:20] Manisha: Ha.
[01:31:20] Abhinandan: I think that's a great idea. Yeah, it's a fantastic idea. We'll, uh, we can do two, three with subscribers-
[01:31:25] Manisha: Yeah, I think this is a very- Good idea.
[01:31:26] Manisha: All right ... for next birthday event.
[01:31:28] Abhinandan: Yeah.
[01:31:29] Manisha: [01:31:30] Ram Bilas says, "Dear News Laundry Half Hour team, this is part one, how shorts shaped my political views. I've been using a smartphone since 2019. I mostly watch YouTube, including shorts. I regularly come across laser eyes edits of S. Jaishankar, his one-liners, shorts of Modi walking, his security convoy, and similar political, political content.
[01:31:49] Manisha: This gradually created an impression in my mind that the Modi government was doing exceptionally well, especially in foreign policy. At that time, I also had a very negative view of the opposition. I mostly knew [01:32:00] Bharat Jodo Yatra through jokes such as Bharat Chodo, rather than understanding its purpose.
[01:32:05] Manisha: Later, after I started reading newspapers, watching long-form videos, my understanding became more nuanced. I realized the impressive visuals and speeches are not necessarily evidence of actual diplomatic work. Similarly, after watching long-form interviews of Rahul Gandhi, my perception of him changed."
[01:32:21] Manisha: Instagram algorithms and short-form news. Before the CJP protest, I did not use Instagram. Afterwards, I tried it only as an experiment and noticed that Instagram keeps [01:32:30] showing similar content for much longer, while YouTube Shorts can eventually shift to completely unrelated topics.
[01:32:36] Song: Hmm.
[01:32:37] Manisha: For me, shorts are useful for entertainment, but not for understanding politics or consuming credible news.
[01:32:42] Manisha: I prefer newspapers and long-form videos because they provide more context and allow me to understand issues in greater depth. My question is: Are short-form platforms actually helping young people understand politics, or are they mainly creating strong political impressions- Hmm ... without enough context?
[01:32:58] Manisha: That's a great question. Regards, a [01:33:00] 22-year-old student. What an amazing email- Yeah ... 22-year-old student. Yeah. Also, it's quite interesting that you noticed the difference between YouTube
[01:33:07] Rinchen: Shorts and Instagram. Shorts and... Hmm. Yeah.
[01:33:08] Manisha: I agree that Instagram really takes you down-
[01:33:11] Rinchen: A rabbit hole ...
[01:33:11] Manisha: what you believe in- Yeah
[01:33:13] Manisha: in a very aggressive way. Yeah,
[01:33:14] Rinchen: it really does.
[01:33:15] Manisha: By the end of one hour, you're like completely-
[01:33:19] Rinchen: Sidetracked ...
[01:33:19] Manisha: but I haven't experienced YouTube Shorts that much, so I'm curious to know the difference.
[01:33:23] Rinchen: Yeah. I, I watch a lot of YouTube Shorts, and his observations are kinda correct. Because, say, for example, if [01:33:30] I'm watch- uh, if I'm watching, say, football content or if I'm watching football, say, even football analysis or tactics content, if I watch one such short, next short is also about the next short, but, but suddenly it'll change to something else, some reality show, something else, some...
[01:33:43] Rinchen: Like, so it's, it's kind of, it's a little- That's interesting ... it's a little jarring. It's a little jarring in that sense- Hmm ... for me as well. But, uh, this-
[01:33:49] Manisha: I think Shorts will basically eventually take over what television news did. Hmm. So live footage, those two-minute visuals, bites coming in from ... This is essentially what TV news did [01:34:00] really well, to give you, like, the immediacy of what has happened, and I think Instagram's, to me, CJP protest, uh, that was what was very remarkable, that to instantly know what was happening at the heart of Delhi, the Reels told me everything.
[01:34:15] Manisha: And not even influencers. People themselves, through their own Reels, were telling us what was happening. Hmm. But I feel eventually you would need to go to journalism, more carefully thought out news, whether in newspapers or organizations like ours, [01:34:30] to really understand what happened. For example, the pellet gun story.
[01:34:32] Manisha: Yeah. The Hindu did it.
[01:34:34] Song: Yeah.
[01:34:34] Manisha: Or the story about the trucks full of stone. We did it.
[01:34:36] Song: Yeah.
[01:34:37] Manisha: So those kind of things, context, you will have to rely on more traditional sources of information, will give you a context of what really happened.
[01:34:45] Song: Exactly.
[01:34:45] Manisha: But for the immediacy of where, what, when, that I think Shorts will soon take over.
[01:34:51] Manisha: All
[01:34:51] Abhinandan: right.
[01:34:52] Manisha: RB says, "Hello. Every generation has canon events that alter its world. 9/11 was one such event for many millennials and [01:35:00] older generations. I was 15, and I'd switched on the TV to watch 'Friends' on Star World only to find a live news broadcast instead." Even I have a very clear memory- Yeah ... of 9/11.
[01:35:09] Manisha: I think I was in ninth standard, if I'm not mistaken. "Watching the towers I saw on the show every day burn and fall was surreal. I'm curious whether the panel remembers what they were doing when they first heard about the attack. I go down a 9/11 rabbit hole every year, but this time the stories hit harder.
[01:35:24] Manisha: It makes me think, will the world read about 9/11 25 years from now and feel the same? [01:35:30] Will we have a memorial for the Gaza genocide 50 years from now? Somehow I feel the answer to both the question is no. What
[01:35:36] Brazil: do you think?" Where were you, do you
[01:35:37] Rinchen: remember, 9/11? I was in boarding school.
[01:35:39] Brazil: I was in school. My mother was like, "What's
[01:35:40] Manisha: happening?"
[01:35:41] Rinchen: Mm, I was in boarding school. "
[01:35:42] Manisha: Accident."
[01:35:42] Rinchen: And we, uh, we had no access to TV, so I, I saw in the papers next, whatever, in the m- in the following days. So I didn't s- I only saw the live visuals, uh, months later when I came for the holidays, and then they showed those-
[01:35:54] Manisha: What is your school? For months you weren't allowed to watch?
[01:35:56] Rinchen: Yeah, we weren't allowed to watch TV. Like we, we had to only every [01:36:00] Saturdays we would watch feature films. But most
[01:36:00] Abhinandan: boarding schools
[01:36:01] Rinchen: are- And boarding school, yeah ... even today people
[01:36:02] Abhinandan: won't have TV.
[01:36:03] Rinchen: Yeah. There's no TV in
[01:36:03] Abhinandan: boarding schools.
[01:36:04] Rinchen: So I, we used to get "The Hindu", uh, this thing, newspapers every day. So the following n- day I saw, and the, the visuals it had.
[01:36:11] Rinchen: I remember that very clearly.
[01:36:12] Abhinandan: Yeah, there's certain things I rem- I mean, I remember exactly where I was watching it when this happened. I remember exactly where I was watching it when the Bombay attack happened. Yeah. You know, uh-
[01:36:22] Manisha: 26/11.
[01:36:23] Abhinandan: 26/11 happened. Yeah. I remember exactly where I was when the Parliament attack happened.
[01:36:26] Rinchen: Yeah.
[01:36:27] Abhinandan: I'm talking about the, the, the earlier one. [01:36:30] 2000. When, you know, Advani and all were in Parliament, et cetera. Yeah. Um, I remember exactly where I was when Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated. I remember exactly where I was where- Indira Gandhi was assassinated. So, I mean, yeah, these things remain. But to answer his question, of course, it's
[01:36:43] Abhinandan: people not feel the same because they will haven't lived it. I mean-
[01:36:46] Mihira: Hmm ...
[01:36:46] Abhinandan: like, I'm sure, you know, my m- mother says she remembers very clearly, and my grandmother, where they were when Bapu died.
[01:36:55] Rinchen: Hmm.
[01:36:56] Abhinandan: When Bapu... But even for someone like me, who really [01:37:00] looks up to Bapu as the ultimate man to have walked the earth, I, I wouldn't feel the same way that this is where it was or- Hmm.
[01:37:06] Manisha: Hmm You haven't lived through it.
[01:37:07] Abhinandan: You haven't lived through it. So that, uh, that's, that's inevitable.
[01:37:09] Manisha: Last letter is by Rakshita. Mm-hmm. Reference to Hafta number 604. The outside panel did an excellent job explaining the systemic rot leading to students' death, but the internal panel suddenly later diverted to individual capacities.
[01:37:23] Manisha: Although you all kept saying the deaths are unfortunate, you did indirectly blame students and the IIT D guys' [01:37:30] diagnosis. Clearly, you didn't understand what Aksa and Sameena were saying, so here are my suggestions. Do an ad on this episode with a trauma-sensitive psychologist as a panelist, or do a whole Let's Talk About series on the subject of suicide and its prevention.
[01:37:44] Manisha: Get TNM to do workshops for all your staff on how to report on these topics. Get a trauma-informed therapist as a consultant contractor to work with your staff on a one-on-one basis when you all start nurturing your own mental health. It's health, not personality judgment. You will understand these issues more [01:38:00] deeply.
[01:38:00] Manisha: Somehow the women in your team are more in touch with their inner selves. Inner
[01:38:04] Abhinandan: selves.
[01:38:04] Manisha: That's true for women across-
[01:38:06] Abhinandan: Across the world ...
[01:38:07] Manisha: across the world. We are more in touch with our inner selves. I think it's
[01:38:09] Abhinandan: also generational thing.
[01:38:10] Manisha: But I don't think we justified it. I don't think that is- No,
[01:38:12] Abhinandan: I, no, I think what, um, Rakshita is referring specifically to was that the
[01:38:18] Abhinandan: I mean, I think I, I may have said this, or basically that the internal teams, like, is it a solvable problem?
[01:38:25] Manisha: Ah, okay.
[01:38:26] Abhinandan: When you were asking, is it- Would there be someone internal in a college or a school, you know, I've been [01:38:30] to boarding school, like, and even today, those schools, I, while the pressure is a lot, I can't imagine anyone who's trained who can actually- provide any significant intervention that could do anything in the current staff, you know what I'm saying?
[01:38:44] Abhinandan: Mm. It's not a role that-
[01:38:45] Manisha: Yeah ...
[01:38:46] Abhinandan: kind of ... I mean, the, uh, what I said was that in a country where even those guys are doing those school audits-
[01:38:51] Song: Mm ...
[01:38:52] Abhinandan: where they don't have benches to sit.
[01:38:53] Song: Mm.
[01:38:53] Abhinandan: There is no teacher. In that world, is it realistic to expect schools to have something which [01:39:00] for that child in some rural school somewhere would be seen as, "Hello, I don't even have a teacher," and other government colleges or schools are providing something that is
[01:39:09] Abhinandan: I mean, I, I just- Mm ... don't see it reconciling. I mean, I'm ...
[01:39:15] Rinchen: No, I, but I don't think not having, say, a government school in, say, rural Madhya Pradesh, not having a teacher or not having benches, uh, or having basic facility. Of course, they should. I mean, there's no question about it. But I don't think it [01:39:30] should ... I mean, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure about the argument that, so therefore should colleges or should universities and institutions have, uh, psychological care or, you know, or a, a, you know, a psychological, a, a sort of system of care that is run by professionals, right?
[01:39:48] Rinchen: So I mean, why can't, why can't they, why can't a college have that? And why can't ... And at the same time we can also say that schools should also have these basic facilities.
[01:39:58] Abhinandan: Yeah, but I'm talking about basic [01:40:00] resour- ... I mean, if you were to just do a balance sheet analysis of this, and if you took a macro picture-
[01:40:03] Rinchen: Okay
[01:40:04] Abhinandan: you have how many colleges of the IM where the government aided or government, you know, whether it's Aims, 'cause, you know- Yeah ... medicine, at least from the one I had recommended, is the most, from what I understand, the kind of mental pressure on you, how it impacts your, you know, mental health.
[01:40:19] Song: Yeah.
[01:40:20] Abhinandan: Especially in a place like India, which is super competitive, is the most. So if you do a calculation of how many such colleges there are in this country or school, which are super competitive, where the pressure is a [01:40:30] lot more than, let's say, you know, a DU, et cetera.
[01:40:31] Song: Mm.
[01:40:33] Abhinandan: And you have this as a resource available to you, and this is all that it needs.
[01:40:37] Abhinandan: There's an inevitability to say, "Okay, take this budget out and put it here."
[01:40:41] Rinchen: Okay.
[01:40:41] Abhinandan: Ideally, of course, you should have everything everywhere.
[01:40:44] Rinchen: Mm.
[01:40:44] Abhinandan: But when you are doing resource allocation, I mean, that is the reality of macro picture. And which is why I think when I was younger, I had a way more, you know, uh, uh, idealistic view of everyone should have everything, but everybody cannot have everything.
[01:40:55] Abhinandan: That is a reality. So if you are, let's say the HRD minister, you said this is your [01:41:00] budget And you know this resource costs this much across, let's say, 5,000 colleges and schools across the country. And in the same amount, you can put X amount here. You have to make a choice. It's all about choices. But
[01:41:14] Manisha: actually forget, uh, having it available in government schools or colleges.
[01:41:18] Manisha: Mental health itself, just in terms of even access to, uh, counselors that you can pay for-
[01:41:23] Abhinandan: Yeah ...
[01:41:24] Manisha: is a severe dearth. People have to go on for waiting for months often.
[01:41:28] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. So- Possibly maybe people don't [01:41:30] opt for psychology, uh- No ... psychiatry in India, do they? They do. Because in the US it's very well-paid.
[01:41:34] Abhinandan: Dentistry and psychiatry is very well-paid in the US. I don't know in
[01:41:36] Manisha: India if it's a- I think it's a very upcoming thing in India, but still there's a severe dearth of, uh, counselors, psychologists. And in colleges and schools, I think, yeah, I get your point. I, I also feel that for severe mental health issues, I'm not even sure if the right approach is to have a counselor.
[01:41:53] Manisha: You do need medical intervention. Professionals. You need-
[01:41:56] Rinchen: Professionals ...
[01:41:56] Manisha: professional psychological, psychiatric help. So you mean, like,
[01:41:59] Abhinandan: a [01:42:00] psychiatrist-
[01:42:00] Manisha: Yeah ...
[01:42:00] Abhinandan: but not a therapist?
[01:42:01] Manisha: Not always. It's not always a sympathetic teacher or a counselor who can help you. Yeah, '
[01:42:05] Abhinandan: cause they're not trained. Actually, that's what-
[01:42:07] Manisha: You're
[01:42:07] Abhinandan: not trained
[01:42:07] Abhinandan: they're not trained. If you're not trained, you can ... You have the best intentions, but they won't be the best outcomes.
[01:42:11] Manisha: Yeah, yeah.
[01:42:11] Rinchen: On question of resources, I think it's an interesting point that you raise, but, uh, institutions like the IITs, institutions ... I mean, I studied in IIT for five years. I ... In- incredible the kind of resources they have on campus- Hmm
[01:42:25] Rinchen: for students. Um, I had a single room all through my five years [01:42:30] in IIT Madras. Uh, you know, and- What,
[01:42:32] Abhinandan: what's the fees like?
[01:42:34] Rinchen: Fees? I think at that time, when some ... I'm talking about 2006 to about 2011. I think it was about f- 40K. Wow. 40K, 60. Yeah, and you, you have, like-
[01:42:43] Abhinandan: That includes your
[01:42:44] Rinchen: boarding, lodging and s- Yeah, everything.
[01:42:45] Rinchen: Like, uh- Wow ... you have, like, internet access direct to your room. Like you just- Mm-hmm ... connect the local area network connection into your laptop and it-
[01:42:52] Manisha: And such a lovely campus, Madras
[01:42:53] Rinchen: is. Yeah, so, like, what I'm saying is these institutions at some level have, I, I think at [01:43:00] least, I don't know, someone would have to do an audit probably to figure this out.
[01:43:03] Rinchen: But I think they have the resources to At least have create a minimal sort of standard of psychological care on campus. I mean, they owe it to their kid- Mm ... owe it to the students there, right? So that's what I, I, well... So yes, if you're talking strictly in terms of, okay, I have this much amount for whatever, this is my budget as HRD
[01:43:24] Abhinandan: minister- 60,000 places
[01:43:24] Rinchen: across the country
[01:43:25] Rinchen: uh, so and I have, and I have to obviously, so
[01:43:29] Manisha: that,
[01:43:29] Rinchen: [01:43:30] that's a different- But premier institutes have the resources, right? Premier institutes I think have the resources. I don't know. I, I can't say for certain. So the government should just spend it. But I think they do.
[01:43:34] Abhinandan: Mm.
[01:43:35] Rinchen: That's just my...
[01:43:36] Abhinandan: Well, thank you so much for that email.
[01:43:38] Abhinandan: Keep them coming in, [email protected]. Now, before we give you the song for the week, no points for guessing what it's gonna be and who it's gonna be dedicated to. Uh,
[01:43:49] Manisha: recommendations- Recommendations.
[01:43:50] Abhinandan: Yes. Manisha, you wanna go first? So
[01:43:51] Manisha: we have, uh, one of my very favorite writers writing for News Laundry after a while, Fahad Zuberi.
[01:43:57] Manisha: He writes on... You've heard him on Haftaa, you've read him on [01:44:00] Express. He writes on urban decay, urban issues, architecture, governance, civic governance. So he's written about the Satya Niketan PG and a Saharanpur mosque that was demolished, what it says about our state, and neglect, and politics of violence.
[01:44:14] Manisha: Do check that out on News Laundry. Vivek has an interesting piece on UPI. And I watched, because I had such a long flight to take, I watched the drama. I don't know if you guys have seen, it's a really wonderful premise-
[01:44:28] Mihira: Mm ...
[01:44:29] Manisha: where I'll [01:44:30] give it away because it's been a while since that movie was released. So- This couple's getting married And they are at this table where they're doing a tasting menu-
[01:44:39] Mihira: Hmm
[01:44:39] Manisha: for their wedding, and they get drunk, and they're with friends, and they have this game that, you know, "We're gonna tell each other the worst thing we've done in our life."
[01:44:46] Mihira: Hmm.
[01:44:47] Manisha: And they go, you know, uh, the ... When it comes to the bride, she, she basically says that, "I once planned a mass shooting when I was a-
[01:44:57] Anupam: Oh.
[01:44:58] Manisha: when I was a, in school." Hmm. [01:45:00] "I didn't do it. I had the weapon. I was going to do it, but I didn't do it."
[01:45:03] Anupam: Hmm.
[01:45:04] Manisha: And then what happens to the couple, the guy is like, "I'm marrying a psycho." How they look at gun violence, you know, her childhood, why she wanted to do a mass shooting and why- Oh. It's just the most fabulous film.
[01:45:17] Manisha: Jesus. That was epic. It's
[01:45:18] Rinchen: a really fun film, watch it.
[01:45:20] Manisha: Hmm. I mean, it's fun- Hmm ... in a way that makes you really think about a lot of things.
[01:45:25] Rinchen: Yeah, it's ... I'm definitely watching it now.
[01:45:27] Manisha: Yeah.
[01:45:28] Rinchen: Uh, couple of [01:45:30] recommendations. One is, uh, this really cool piece I read in, uh, a very, uh, interesting piece I read on the Himal, uh, South Asian mag.
[01:45:38] Rinchen: Hmm. It's about, uh, uh, the title, the head- title is Mary Slusser's Secret Loot of Nepal- Hmm ... Sacred Art and Heritage. So basically, it's about a US, American scholar who sort of made a name as an expert on Nepal's cul- cultural heritage, but while she was illicitly sort of buying sacred artifacts and smuggling them out of, out to the United States.
[01:45:58] Abhinandan: Hmm.
[01:45:58] Rinchen: So it's, uh, this, by [01:46:00] this Erin L. Thompson. Uh, it's definitely, I would recommend that. Then, of course, the, uh, Caravan's story on the Naga-Kuki violence, uh, 'cause, uh, by Grishma Kuthar. Uh, she's written this really sort of solid piece of reportage, uh, headlined Dying on These Hills. Um, and of course, the sh- I saw the show called Furious on Hotstar.
[01:46:24] Rinchen: It's on Hotstar. I really wanna see it.
[01:46:25] Mihira: What's it about? How is it?
[01:46:26] Rinchen: It's, oh, it's a very, uh, it's ... I f- I p- I think it's [01:46:30] phenomenal. Uh- What is it? It's a basically a crime drama. It's a not, it's not really a serial killer- Hmm ... a lady serial killer sort of thing. Okay. Not really a serial killer in, in that sense, technically she could be, but-
[01:46:41] Manisha: Something like a revenge drama
[01:46:42] Rinchen: but it's more how, it's more of a revenge crime drama. Um, and, uh-
[01:46:47] Manisha: Yeah, women kill.
[01:46:47] Rinchen: Yeah. When it's, it's dark as hell, but it's- Hmm ... exceptionally well shot, exceptionally well made. I think you would really enjoy it as well. Uh, great storytelling, and like, I binge-watched this in, over a weekend, so, [01:47:00] uh-
[01:47:00] Manisha: Yeah, I've heard so much about it
[01:47:01] Rinchen: and, uh- Is
[01:47:02] Manisha: it like some, is it like a feminist-
[01:47:04] Rinchen: It is ... kind of a, yeah. It is. It is, definitely is. Uh, uh, it explores- Uh, the fine, very fine nuances of trauma and trauma women go through. And it's a, and it deals with it in a very sort of interesting and mature way, I thought personally. So, I, it's, I would recommend the show highly.
[01:47:21] Rinchen: Uh- Mm. Then of course, uh, talking about Brazil, and since you've come from Brazil, I sort of, since you're coming from Brazil, I saw this movie a [01:47:30] couple of weeks back called Secret Agent. Mm. Uh, it is starring Wagner Moura, the guy who was the lead actor in Narcos, the first- Mm ... Narcos who played Pablo Escobar.
[01:47:38] Rinchen: Yeah. Who you see all the memes and this and all. He's
[01:47:40] Song: so good.
[01:47:41] Rinchen: So Secret Agent, um, no spoilers. It's on Prime, but I would, but you should... It's a, it's a, it's a great, uh, it's, it's sort of set in the '70s in Brazil, I think during, when they were under have, under military dictatorship. So, and he's a sort of, he's a tech-
[01:47:57] Manisha: Oh, I'll definitely watch this.
[01:47:58] Rinchen: Yeah. So-
[01:47:59] Manisha: [01:48:00] Since I'm just
[01:48:00] Rinchen: back from Brazil . Yeah, since, yeah, exactly. So yeah, those are my recommendations.
[01:48:03] Abhinandan: So my first recommendation is, uh, it was also the birthday of a gentleman called Erode Ramaswamy yesterday, uh, who we also known as Periyar.
[01:48:13] Rinchen: Mm.
[01:48:13] Abhinandan: Uh, a man truly amazing, who made a huge impact in Tamil politics, which is apparent till today.
[01:48:24] Abhinandan: And I guess it's his influence that till today, that is one bastion that the Hindu right cannot penetrate.
[01:48:29] Mihira: [01:48:30] Mm.
[01:48:30] Abhinandan: So Indian Express had a really nice piece on him, uh, on his birthday by Nikita Mohan. Who was Periyar? Remembering the atheist who profaned the gods. I mean, if you see some of, if you read some of his writings and things he said- I mean, you'd be like, even if you're an atheist, you'd, you might be, uh, scandalized.
[01:48:54] Abhinandan: But yeah, I think it's important that he's remembered just as much as the yagyas that are being [01:49:00] conducted across the country. The second is, um, because someone had said, why do I recommend him so much, uh, and why do I consume... I consume all his podcasts as the Ezra Klein in New York Times.
[01:49:11] Song: Hmm.
[01:49:12] Abhinandan: Uh, if you listen to his last episode, you'll see why.
[01:49:15] Abhinandan: The End of History, uh, Francis Fukuyama's The End of History and the Last Man is one of the most insightful books for understanding the strangeness and instability of the political moment, and he has done a conversation on that. And I think these kind of conversations, at least I really [01:49:30] enjoy, 'cause you can agree with some, you can disagree with some.
[01:49:33] Abhinandan: Because of the nature of how he conducts it, you don't feel overly defensive or want to contradict someone for the sake of it. And the third is The Daily Show episode on Kash
[01:49:45] Rinchen: Patel. Yes.
[01:49:45] Abhinandan: Oh my God. It is his congressional hearing on bestial-
[01:49:49] Rinchen: Bestiality. Bestiality, my
[01:49:52] Abhinandan: God. It is so funny. That- It is. I was just cracking up.
[01:49:57] Abhinandan: I had my headphones. I was- Yeah ... my mother thought [01:50:00] I was mad. Oh, dude, it is so funny. Oh, I'll check
[01:50:03] Manisha: this out.
[01:50:03] Abhinandan: And what kind of morons? Yeah. And this is what I find about politics is, you know, we keep trying to find sense in this person must be so smart to do this, to do- Politics is one thing where you can, you cannot analyze, figure out why has this person got to where
[01:50:28] Abhinandan: he is. Yeah, yeah. And Kash Patel is a jeeta jaagta. There are [01:50:30] many within our country also.
[01:50:31] Rinchen: Yeah.
[01:50:32] Abhinandan: But dude, this is next level, yeah. You gotta see it.
[01:50:35] Rinchen: There's a hilarious exchange between the senator, this Kennedy's Republican senator-
[01:50:41] Abhinandan: And
[01:50:41] Rinchen: him ... and K- and him about b-
[01:50:42] Abhinandan: Bestiality ...
[01:50:43] Rinchen: bestiality, and how the FBI re- relaxed the norms surrounding bestiality.
[01:50:48] Abhinandan: That now To a Congressman, he says that... So he says, "Why did you feel the need to relax norms that if you have been convicted or accused of bestiality, you can still apply to the [01:51:00] FBI?" Like, why did you feel the need to amend that? Yeah. So he says, "I'm so glad you asked that question." So the congressman said that, "Really?"
[01:51:08] Abhinandan: But, and he says, "Now, we have relaxed at both ends." So Kennedy with a straight face says, "Both ends means the animal and the human." It is the most bizarre conversation with a straight face. Oh my God. It is just too funny. I have to check this
[01:51:24] Rinchen: out. I couldn't believe my ears when I was listening to this. I was
[01:51:26] Abhinandan: cr- I watched it two, three times.
[01:51:29] Abhinandan: For some reason I watch it, I [01:51:30] find it funny.
[01:51:30] Rinchen: Oh, my
[01:51:30] Abhinandan: God. And it's not a sitcom. It's not scripted.
[01:51:32] Rinchen: It's, it's a real- It's
[01:51:33] Abhinandan: real ...
[01:51:34] Rinchen: it's a Congressional hearing. Like, it's a real exchange between two...
[01:51:38] Abhinandan: So yeah, I'd like to s- thank our wonderful sound recordist, Anirudh, our producer, Amit, uh, and thank all of you. And I remind you, you can get either of these mugs and the T-shirt.
[01:51:48] Abhinandan: There's a QR code around somewhere on the screen right now, and there's a link. Be useful on Modiji's birthday. Since you could not give him a gift directly, buy this stuff, [01:52:00] wear it, so you can be identified and save everybody time. With that, a salute. Happy birthday, Modiji, again, and a fantastic weekend.
[01:52:09] Abhinandan: This song is dedicated to guess who? Bye-bye.[01:52:30]
[01:52:37] Song: क्या है फूलों की जरूरत जो बहार खुद कहलाए। हर कली का दिल धड़काए। तू जिए हजारों साल। ये मेरी है आरजू। हैप्पी बर्थडे।[01:53:00]
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