This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, and Manisha Pande are joined by ex-Chief Election Commissioner Dr SY Quraishi, and academic Professor R Manivannan.
Dr Quraishi says that ensuring a level-playing field is the Election Commission’s “dharma”. He says it is necessary for conducting free and fair elections which are “a basic structure of the Constitution”. He adds that the EC follows the principle of “what can wait must wait”, and asks whether the arrest of opposition leaders could have waited.
On the Katchatheevu island issue, Prof. Manivannan says the island was historically “within the revenue region of the king of Ramanathapuram”, adding that by 1976, the fishing rights of Tamil fishermen had been taken away in the region. “What happens to the population that relies on fishing in the region?” he asks.
This and a lot more. Tune in!
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Song: Mehngai Dayain
Timecodes
00: 02:41 - Headlines
00:10:53 - Role of Election Commission
41:01:30- Katchatheevu
01:22:01 - Letters
01:46:48 - Recommendations
References
From UPA government to CM Manohar Parrikar: When governments listen to the Election Commission
The many truths of Katchatheevu that no party wants to acknowledge
Sri Lanka: Hiding the Elephant: Documenting Genocide, War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity
Praful Patel’s daughter pulled out scheduled AI flight for IPL
Recommendations
SY Quraishi
India's Experiment With Democracy
An Undocumented Wonder: The Great Indian Election
R Manivannan
Corrupt Practices at Elections
Manisha
In charts: Narendra Modi’s welfare ‘freebies’ offer an election boost
‘Don of the dons’: What Patrick French wrote about Mukhtar Ansari
Raman
Abhinandan
33 loss-making firms donated electoral bonds worth ₹582 crore, 75% went to BJP
Check out our previous Hafta recommendations.
Produced and recorded by Aryan Mahtta and Priyali Dhingra, edited by Hassan Bilal and Umrav Singh.
Hafta 479
Abhinandan: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast, and you're listening to NL Hafta. English never leaves their focus
and News Laundry never leaves their week. Welcome to another episode of Hafta. From the 4th of April, Thursday, we are recording this at 3 in the afternoon. Uh, and in the current environment of things changing very quickly, it is likely many things will change by the time you hear this podcast. Which means many people may join the BJP, as has happened over the last week or two.
I would just like to remind you all before we start that we have an NL Sena project, but not one, several. Like, you know, we take no ads from any governments, which is why you'll see all our banners are clean. We don't have ads of every state and central government and Modiji's face. Uh, we don't take Adani ads, Ambani ads, or any ads for that matter.
because we depend on you. So do contribute to our election coverage fund. [00:01:00] The News Minutes team and News Laundries team will be covering this election together. And we have one very special surprise reporter who will also be joining this team. You have seen him for many years, over 20, on a television channel.
And we have hopefully convinced him to join our team for this election coverage. And all this will happen with money that you contribute, not government or Sarkari Sarkari or corporate ads. On that note, and on that appeal for you to step up and hold the line and make sure democracy is protected and not bought over by big money.
I will introduce the panel to you in the studio with me is Ravan Karpal.
Raman: Hello,
Abhinandan: Editor in Chief and our Managing Editor Manisha Pandey.
Raman: Hello.
Abhinandan: Joining us on Zoom is a former Election Commission superstar and he has been here before and you have read his recent piece which is in the link below. Hello. It [00:02:00] is, uh, The Empire Cannot Be Silent in the Indian Express.
He is the author of India's Experimental Democracy, The Life of a Nation Through Its Elections. The link to that book is also in the show notes below. He was the 17th Chief Election Commissioner of India. Dr. S. Y. Qureshi. Welcome, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you for making the time again. We really appreciate that you are available to talk to News Laundry.
Otherwise, most people don't think it worth their time to come and meet us or talk to us. So we really appreciate that.
SY Quraishi: Thank you very much. I'm happy to be invited. I'm a great fan of News Laundry. Let me tell you that.
Abhinandan: Thank you. Thank you so much. See, even such accomplished great people appreciate us. So those of you who are watching do support publicly funded journalism.
Uh, before we get into the discussion and election is going to be a big part of it, thus a wonderful guest Manisha will fill us in on the headlines that transpired this, this week.
Manisha: On Sunday, the India Alliance came together in a show of strength at the Ramlila This was [00:03:00] principally to protest K. G. Wald's arrest with the message that anti BJP forces need to unite to save democracy.
Sonia Gandhi, Sunita Kejriwal were spotted on the stage together. In fact, that gave us the image of the event, I think, seeing them together. Tejasvi Adav, Priyanka Gandhi also spoke among other leaders. A day later, Kerala Chief Minister Piniyari Vijayan said Arvind Kejriwal's arrest is a lesson for the Congress who led the attack against Delhi government when it faced corruption charges with regard to liquor policy.
He's been making these statements because
Raman: Congress is facing off against each other in Kerala. He's called Rahul
Manisha: for contesting. And
Raman: technically he's right.
Manisha: On Tuesday, AAP Rajya Sabha MP Sanjay Singh was granted bail by the Supreme Court six months after his arrest by the ED. This is again in the Delhi excise policy case, although the court said that this is not to be taken as precedence.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi said the DMK did nothing to safeguard the state's interest when Katchathevu Island was ceded to Sri Lanka in [00:04:00] 1974. The chronology of this was basically that Tamil Nadu goes to election in the next two weeks, first phase. They need an emotional issue. who's the BJP leader there.
He's fighting from Coimbatore, files an RTI, that RTI response appears in Times of India and then all anchors pick it up saying that Indira Gandhi gave away. Our sovereignty to Sri Lanka, this is not the truth and it's, uh, hides a lot of the things that that treaty was all about. Very well orchestrated, I must say.
Yeah, and
Raman: we
Manisha: can talk about this in detail as the, we have a guest in fact who's going to be talking on this. On Sunday, China released a fourth list of 30 new names of Arunachal Pradesh. This is amid Beijing stepped up assertions in recent weeks to re emphasize its claim over the Indian state. In response, we have Anil Suresh Chavanke, who's posting the Chinese Premier's face as a monkey and saying we'll call Beijing Bajirang Nagar or something like that.
Soft power. The Supreme Court on Monday issued a notice to the Election Commission on a petition seeking tallying all [00:05:00] all tallying of all VVPAT slips to verify votes cast through the electronic voting machine. Eight months after NCP leader Praful Patel, along with Ajit Pawar and other party leaders joined the NDA, the CBI has filed a closure report in the Air India Indian Airlines merger case.
In fact, Express had a very good investigation this week, where they said 23 out of 24 opposition leaders who joined the BJP and had charges of corruption against them, have been washed, washed properly and all the cases have gone cold.
Abhinandan: And in case you don't remember, there was this one big story when Praful Patel was Civil Aviation Minister, his daughter, also IPL related, his daughter wanted to fly some guests and she just changed an Air India flight.
Uh, from where it was supposed to go to where she wanted it to go. And there was a major story regarding this. This is the same man.
Manisha: Jailed gangster turned politician. Mukhtar Ansari died on Thursday night after he suffered [00:06:00] a cardiac arrest in Banda prison in Uttar Pradesh. The Tamil Nadu government has moved the Supreme Court against the central government for allegedly not raising relief funds for damages caused by the recent floods and cyclone Maichung.
Meanwhile, observing that there's a recent trend of governors getting involved in litigation for not assenting to bills sent for approval by state governments, Supreme Court Judge B. V. Nagaratna said they should act in accordance with the Constitution. It's quite embarrassing for governors to be told to do or not do a thing, she said.
And the Supreme Court again made headlines when it slammed Baba Ramdev and Patanjali. Uh, and said that you show no remorse and this was said
Raman: that they're not happy with their apologies. So they should come up with something better
Manisha: and why they shouldn't be contempt proceeding. I think they said they looked really mute and
Abhinandan: no, but their his security twisted the arm of the reporter was asking when he went
Audio insert: out.[00:07:00]
Abhinandan: I, I think these, all these Babas have been shown their place and how really toucha they are. You know, everyone in Sadhguru, you ask him an uncomfortable question, they are telling us to be calm. They cannot remain calm if an uncomfortable question is asked. So it would be wonderful to. Have a interview with these guys if they actually have the courage to give an interview.
Manisha: At least seven people died and nearly seven 30 were injured after an earthquake struck Taiwan on we Day. An investigation by Wrights Group Access Now and Global Witness has shown that YouTube in India's failing to implement its policy on preventing misinformation. related to elections from getting published on its platform.
Quite a disturbing piece. This was in fact, News Laundries carried it also with some of the election ads were very inflammatory. Like don't let a particular community take over. So it was, [00:08:00] um,
Abhinandan: also as we are recording this, the YouTube channel of, uh, platform called Bolta Hindustan,
Manisha: Sham Miras, I think,
Abhinandan: uh, it has been taken down and all these channels that are being taken on YouTube channels.
I don't understand the message that goes from YouTube, but I quote is we have received a notice from Ministry of Information and Broadcasting directing blocking of your channel available at the URL pursuant to Rule 15. 2 of the Information Technology Intermediary Guideline and Digital Media Ethics Code Rules 2021.
Read with section 69A of Information Technology Act. The notice itself is confidential, so we are unable to share it with you at this time. So no one knows exactly why that thing has been taken down.
Raman: That's the message going to everyone. Bizarre. Ditto. Ditto message.
Manisha: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israel deeply regrets its strikes on an aid convoy in the Gaza Strip that killed seven workers for the charity group World Central Kitchen.
And we're [00:09:00] going to have a regular feature now till elections every badli in politics, who's joining who, who's left who.
Abhinandan: Because it will continue till, I think polling will start. So last week, Vijender Singh, the famous boxer who was with the Congress and contested 2019 on a Congress ticket, has joined the BJP.
Gaurav Vallabh, very effective spokesman of Congress, has left the Congress and joined the BJP. Ajay Kumar Nishad has left the BJP and joined the Congress because he was not given a ticket from, uh,
Raman: Muzaffarnagar, you
Abhinandan: said? Muzaffar, Muzaffarpur, Muzaffarpur.
Raman: Acha, that is in Bihar.
Abhinandan: He has, so he has switched and joined the Congress.
So there will be many such Adla Badli's happening. So he'll keep you posted.
Manisha: Our listeners should, uh, listen to the response Vijendra Singh gave though for joining BJP. It was just remarkable.
Audio insert: Rahul Gandhi was retweeting a video yesterday in which Modi ji was being mocked. Now the question is, why did Boxer's mind change in 24 hours?
He says, then I slept after that. Then I woke up and I felt that no, man, you are doing wrong. You are on the wrong platform. Then you came to the Bharatiya Janata Party and [00:10:00] from here you say you will go in the right direction. That's why I came to the Bharatiya Janata Party. People are
Abhinandan: jagoing. This is the jago.
Audio insert: Jago.
Abhinandan: Uh, but I would just like to, cause we're not going to discuss this in detail, but it's important if those are listeners who know, great, if you don't, uh, the strikes that killed the convoys on Gaza Strip from the world central kitchen, it is now clear that it wasn't accidental firing. Those particular vehicles were targeted because there were three vehicles, which were some distance apart from each other.
So it wasn't like one bomb fell and blew up all three. They were too far for one. So each of them was targeted by a separate strike. So the intention was to strike that vehicle. And for the first time, the, you know, Israel is on the back foot and they've had to apologize, but I think it won't be the last is done for it, man.
They like Netanyahu deserves to, I mean, he deserves the worst punishment for, for war crimes. I think he's done. [00:11:00] Uh, anyway. So on that note, let's get into the discussion. I'd like to start with the whole VV pat, uh, thing. Uh, Mr. Khi, uh, sorry. Dr. Khi. I should not say Mr. Khi. Dr. Koshi. So, uh, just one thing because I've been discussing this with, uh, uh, a journalist slash researcher who's actually in doing a longish paper on, uh, vvi pat machines.
Uh, I'm sorry, EVMS, because, you know, there's so much of every now and then they're not credible, and you have in the past, on half the only said that. It is, when you were saying that if they want to do one set, they have to make another two and a half lakh machine, you had explained. Why, how, et cetera. One of the things that was said to me is that there should be nothing breaking the information that goes from the, the, where you press the button, that panel to the, uh, whatever, where the data is stored, the VVPAT should be on that side.
That means on the right [00:12:00] of where the information goes. So, you press the button that is marked in that data storing machine and then the VVPAT can cut the slip and drop it into the box below. Right now, the VVPAT has come between the two, whereas there should be no break between the two. Does it matter? A.
B. Is it true that the earlier VVPAT machines When the light would go off, you'd see what has been printed and cut the new ones. When the light goes on, you don't see what has been printed and cut. You just, you just see a light go off, but you don't see what has been cut. Is that true?
SY Quraishi: I don't know what the second part, uh, uh, read about it.
But that was the first thing that, uh, VVPAT has been brought, uh, between the ballot unit and the control unit. Yes. I find it very illogical and, uh, uh, not acceptable because, uh, BVPAT and sorry, the, uh, CU and the BU have been operating together for the [00:13:00] last 20 years. There are links, you press a button, the vote goes into the control unit and gets recorded.
Now something which is already working and it is all in the field. In the district, in the constituencies, how will we bring a Vivipat in between and why should we bring it in between? Uh, in fact, Vivipat was introduced by me in 2011 when I called an all party meeting. In two October, 2010 when the controversy was at his peak, and that was the time when the biggest critic of, uh, EVM was the BJP mm-Hmm.
They wrote a book called, UH,
Abhinandan: yeah.
SY Quraishi: Democracy. Do you remember that? I
Abhinandan: remember. So,
SY Quraishi: uh, and when we called this all party meeting, general was leading it. Other top leaders of other parties were there. And they suggested, uh, they, he, uh, Chandra Babu specifically said, he said, I'm not saying that, uh, EVMs have manipulated the results in the past, nor am I saying that they will manipulate in the future.
All that we are saying, it doesn't have [00:14:00] transparency. And what does it mean by, do you mean by transparency? When you press a button, The vote goes into the machine, where exactly it is going, you really cannot see physically. And only election commission explains that there are lots of procedures, and there are three mock polls, everything, all that detail.
There's no doubt it goes to the right place. Now, when we introduce the VVPAC, It is common sense. I'm not a technical guy, but a common sense that same button, there will be a parallel wire going to the VVPAT. Once the ballot unit is pressed and there's a vote for A, the vote gets recorded. And here is the same instruction goes to, uh, VB pad and it shows you that candidate and prints that, uh, slip.
So therefore there is absolutely no question. It is a very foolish proposition. If somebody had done it or somebody thinking about it, that it is coming in between. And the reason why they're saying it, that has a point. They [00:15:00] say that we, we, our defense of EVM was always that it is a, it's a one time programmable read only chip.
Once you programmed it, it cannot take any other instruction and to give you an analogy, you have a calculator. In last 10 years, when you say two plus two, it'll always tell you four. You cannot program it. To give you two plus two is five. You cannot, because it's pre-programmed now, whereas, uh, ed has to be programmable because there, the program is decided on the, on the, uh, day before.
Uh, the, the nomination they start, because that is, uh, no, the, the, you know, on actually the day when the nominations finish, the scrutiny are done and people withdraw their candidates. So when you're the final
Abhinandan: list of contenders.
SY Quraishi: When the final list of contenders is known, that has to be printed, that has to be programmed on the VVPAT.
So therefore, linking it with [00:16:00] CU and CU controlling it, uh, doesn't make any sense. There is no need for it. So these are parallel activities. And secondly, the fact that they have been working fine, according to me, lakhs and lakhs of chits from this. Uh, VVPAT have been compared with what is recorded in the CU and they have all tallied except for one or two cases where some technical reason, uh, which was explained.
Uh, overall, the
Abhinandan: data is overwhelming that the tallying of the VVPAT has been consistent. There has not been any significant or discrepancy that can impact any election in any way.
SY Quraishi: Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know the, why the problem started in 2019 for some silly reason. Yeah. Absolutely. Some election commission official said that, you know, the, uh, the people wanted the data, you know, it will take some time.
It will take, it might even take six months. What stupidity is it? That data has to tally that very day. You know, when you press the button at the end of the polling [00:17:00] day, if there are 650 votes, uh, polled. The machine records that, you know it, but the day when you open the machine to show the results, the first thing it will show you, look, my number is so and so, and I have 650 votes in me.
And before it starts telling you the detail of candidate one, candidate two, to say that the data will take some time. What was that nonsense? I don't understand. And that is what has created all the confusion. That should have been explained by the Election Commission. Why was it not explained? I don't really know.
Abhinandan: Right. And I understand that there is a convention of not commenting on one's department going forward, but I will risk a question. Uh, are you satisfied with the way the election commission has been picked? Uh, and the objections or the concerns of the chief justice being removed from that? Does that bother you?
SY Quraishi: Well, uh, it bothers me only to [00:18:00] this extent. That the collegium, which consisted of chief justice has been working for the last 10, 15 years for three other posts, CBC, CIC and director of CBI, not once the decision of this collegium has been questioned, that is the benefit of a collegium now, and not once has the chief justice objected to the prime minister selection.
Whether this prime minister or the previous prime minister, not one is not proved to be difficult for the collegium and at the same time, because of his presence, there was credibility. Now, this collegium, according to me, is a joke. Now, Prime Minister and his, uh, the cabinet minister. Do you think any cabinet minister has the guts to disagree with the prime minister?
And therefore it is already 2 to 1 before the committee meets it is 2 to 1. The leader of opposition has been marginalized. It is optically horrible. [00:19:00] And why it was done, I don't understand. Because if Chief Justice had continued to be in the Collegium, there would have been no problem and maybe this same Collegium with Chief Justice would have selected the same two gentlemen.
Because there is nothing wrong with these two gentlemen because they fit the bill. They qualify, there have been secretaries to the government and to reach the level of secretary to government, you know, it takes a lot. If 100 people join the IAS after 30 years, 35 years, only 5 people make it to the top on the basis of their integrity and on the basis of their brilliant performance.
They fit the bill. They're all brilliant people. As I say, Chief Justice would have chosen them. So there was no need for. To play with the optics, actually the first draft, which was introduced by the government three months before the bill was passed, uh, had the correct collegium. Why was it changed on second thought?
I really don't understand.
Abhinandan: My theory is that the optics are [00:20:00] this. I think Mr. Modi wants to give the optics that it is me who will decide everything. It is I, me, myself. Uh, but you know, when it comes to the election commission and the schedule, how is the schedule impacting you, Raman sir and you Manisha, your team's I know are going everywhere because I have just been sent the prospective budget for travel and we shall have a chat about that later.
Uh, but, but, but, uh, it's what an eight week schedule, but you know, when you say you're traveling, what, what are the No, it's, it's a very,
Manisha: so April, May, May, and I start traveling from 17th onwards and we finish the first two phases and then third phase I'll be back in Delhi, but yeah, reporters are going to be out from phase two to phase seven.
And it's going to be gruelingly, at least one question we should ask, uh, Dr. Pareshi. Is this, you know, there's so many people complaining of the weather. It's going to be hot. We're going to have unprecedented heat wave this year [00:21:00] especially. I was talking to Dhanya, in fact, our colleague from News Minute, who said she was speaking to some candidates in Kerala and they sounded like patients.
It was difficult for them to canvas because again there's like crazy amount of heat. Is there no better option than to have these elections in May? Why are we not changing it? Makes more sense even for voter turnout. More people are likely to turn out when You know, I
SY Quraishi: know, I know, in fact, this year, uh, very hot summaries are predicted.
And last election, the elections are over by 21st of May. Why did they have to be extended to 4th of June? I really don't understand. In fact, the effort should have been to, in fact, reduce it and shorten it. And shorten it and not only in terms of time schedule one, you can advance early, you could have advanced three weeks earlier and finish three weeks earlier.
Also, that is one thing I've been saying, although I've always defended the phases, because that was the need of the time to save lives. Because every political [00:22:00] party demand that we bring paramilitary forces, which is central armed police force, technically, though, and since they are from outside, they cannot be influenced in the within the state now, because that force was limited.
So that limited force was circulated from one side to the other. So now we don't need forces if they are made available, we should do it in one phase because in the age of social media and explosion of, uh, conventional media, uh, lots of, uh, rumors, fake news, uh, Hate speech, that is creating more damage than, uh, it is solving problem.
Therefore, the time has come for us to reconsider phased election, come back to single phase, and it is possible, it is doable to finish it in 30 days, 30 to 33 days.
Manisha: In fact, we were noticing that the battleground states are through the seven phases, which is my conjecture is that Prime Minister Modi would like to [00:23:00] pace it out.
Every phase he'd like to go and give his rallies and speeches. Yeah, West Bengal, Bihar, Maharashtra. But you're right, like, if there isn't an issue of, you know, of violence, In large number of constituencies, you don't need phases.
Abhinandan: But, uh, Dr. Qureshi, I mean, I pity, you know, the people who are contesting from Sikar, Gajak kaan se aati hai, Morena, uh, even Amritsar, they'll start, they'll be roasted.
But is it because in March, uh, which would be the best time actually for election, people can have picnics and go vote at the same time, spring. But since most, uh, polling stations are government schools and March is when the board exam happens, people They can never do it in March. So it either has to be Jan, Feb, or then October, November.
Is that correct?
SY Quraishi: Yeah, quite right. Uh, quite right. Because March is the examination month and all the schools that are polling stations and all the teachers, most of the teachers are our polling staff. So, at the same [00:24:00] time, instead of the first phase being on the 19th of April, It could have perhaps have been on the 5th of April, uh, of course, some people would say that, you know, where the noise of the campaign will disturb the student.
So there could be some trade off that we are
Abhinandan: used to it. So I remember when I was. There was this, I still remember that slogan, Taraju kiska 80s, uh, they used to be, and those days to no one gave a shit about, you know, all these petitions that sound pollution or, you kept trying to sleep, it was aaju par na baaju par, mohar lagegi taraju par.
And it was to the tune of this song, Aapke Aaja Naise by Govinda and they had this song of this and I, so we've studied through that and we did decently well, but, uh,
Manisha: but yeah, it's going to be a very grueling time in the next two months, especially because of the heat, like I said. Uh, and also the length and [00:25:00] breadth of what we aim to cover this election, which is quite unprecedented.
I think this is our biggest election coverage yet in news laundry.
SY Quraishi: Also, if I, if I may add, uh, you know, we also had seven pages where we, we have been having seven pages for the three, four elections, but the gap between the two phases was never more than five days. Four to five days, because that is enough to move the forces.
This time the minimum gap is seven days and maximum gap is 11 or 12 days between second and third phase. I don't understand why this phase. Of course, let us see what is the reason it will come out.
Abhinandan: But Raman sir, I mean, any interesting, uh, battles that you are looking most forward to in this election?
Raman: I think, uh, the battlefield states are West Bengal, Maharashtra, uh, Bihar, uh, and Karnataka, yes, to some extent, yes.
Uh, because Congress has just been, uh, over there. But in fact, when we were covering the state elections, The [00:26:00] impression that we were getting that at the national level, they still favor BJP. But yes, at the state level, they want to bring, you
Abhinandan: know, brings me to favor the BJP, you know, Yesterday and day before were two days, uh, Sanjay Singh having been given bail.
Uh, the following reasons are the ones that are being speculated. How come ED did not oppose bail? Otherwise they oppose bail each time. So apparently the case as you know, Manisha in the last hafta had very clearly and eloquently explained that. It is such a weird law that the, you don't have to have proved prima facie anything.
It is to you to prove that you are innocent and bail is not given on merits of the case. It is all the principles of bail. Those don't apply here. So therefore, if. A judge is going to rule on your bail. The law states that the judge has to be convinced that you have no part to play, which means the judge is ruling on the case, not just on your bail, and no judge will do that.[00:27:00]
So in this case, because I think the judge observed, and I will just come to that, that then I will have to get into the merits of, so then the ED did not want the judge to get into the merits, otherwise then Vijay Nair would be out, Arvind would be out, Manish would be out. They said, we won't oppose bail, then the judge won't get into the merits.
Sting: Hmm. So
Abhinandan: it was a strategic step back by the ed, because if the ED says, okay, get into the merits, and he says, okay, let me get to the merits. Is there any merit to the case that there's a money trail? So they said, okay, forget that. So come man, re So that was the strategic play apparently. Oh, got it. Uh, but now him coming out the rally.
And the desperation of the BJP is welcoming everybody in. I'm not sure that things are as hunky dory for the BJP as we would ordinarily think because the battle cry that Sanjay gave, and he's an extremely powerful orator.[00:28:00]
And we know that the Delhi Janta loves both Modi and Kejriwal. Yeah.
Manisha: Dharam sankat ho gaya. I mean, I, in fact, I don't know
Abhinandan: if I still have the video, uh, this former colleague of mine. He used to be the Kitchen in charge in my early office. He sent me videos Ki Niku sir, humare yahan basti se Hum sab bus mein bhar Maidan.
And he showed me videos of like, hundreds of them, eight buses apart. It was a
Raman: very big rally.
Abhinandan: So I said, who has paid for the buses? I said, let me also get that. Have you guys put together these? He says, no, we haven't put together these, but we are going on our own. The buses have been arranged for us. By one of the local guys in the ti.
I dunno who's paying for it, but we are going where we want to go. And, and he is, in fact, if you call him his ringtone is,[00:29:00]
he's Hindu. But he went,
Manisha: but she went to the,
Abhinandan: he went to that rally and said, I'm not going to, so I think this, what's happened has kind of, and by the way, while we are recording this. The High Court, the acting Chief Justice of the High Court has struck down the Hindu Sena plea saying that, uh, the LG should be asked to remove Chief Minister because he can't rule from jail.
The court has said, let democracy take its course. So yeah, do you think it changes the The dynamic in at least Delhi and Haryana and anywhere?
Raman: Dynamics in politics change every minute. Like right now, Sanjay, with Sanjay coming, coming out of the jail, it seems that AAP has got better perspectives. But after a week or so, you will find something else taking over.
So I think it's very difficult to read, you know, the public behavior. in politics. [00:30:00] I think it changes every, every, and, and there's no undercurrent. Uh, I don't see any undercurrent.
Manisha: And also one thing that works against Kejriwal, I think, which is this, I think, large, broad Indian sentiment of not a lot of sympathy for anyone who's even accused of corruption because of which Kejriwal benefited also.
His rise was also on the sab kind of rhetoric. So I think public also na, even if there's a little bit of taint on sab So I think that could kind of work against them, but like we discussed last time, it really depends on how the opposition is built to galvanize people. May I come
SY Quraishi: in on this? Yeah,
Manisha: yeah.
SY Quraishi: You know, there is a, for me, there is a serious matter of concern here. We have been noticing that when the prosecuting agency objects to bail, bail is not given. Who is the deciding factor? The prosecutor or the judge? So this has become a normal practice that they always oppose if their job is to oppose and it is the job of the court to [00:31:00] decide either accept their opposition or reject it.
Here, if the, we are depending on the mercy of the prosecutor, if he doesn't want to pursue it, then the bail is granted, otherwise, uh, uh, bail is denied. This is absolutely wrong. It doesn't appeal to my sense of judgment.
Manisha: In fact, I want to ask Dr. Qureshi, I mean, maybe you could weigh in on the big theme for this election that everyone seems to be talking about is free and fair, like how free and fair are these elections going to be?
The opposition has asked these questions. You've had pieces in the foreign media also like Financial Times this week had You know, an edit talking about how concerning it is, what's happening to the mother of democracy. I think Ashok Lavasa also wrote a piece in the Express saying that, you know,
Abhinandan: Yeah, on that.
It's time
Manisha: for the EC to change certain things in the rulebook. Is it even possible for EC to address What's happening today in terms of jailing of opposition or freezing of accounts or the capture of media.
Abhinandan: But [00:32:00] before you answer the question, Dr. Qureshi, I'd just like to include our next guest onto the panel, if you don't mind, and then you can please proceed with the answer.
Uh, also joining us today because we will later on in this show be discussing This whole, uh, Tamil, uh, um, Sri Lanka having been given a strategic island that is 300 meters. Mujhe hi de do. We can set up the news laundry winter office over there.
Manisha: Waha Strategically we did a good thing giving it away.
Abhinandan: But anyway, we'll see that.
So, uh, before Dr. Qureshi answers that question, I would like to welcome our next guest, Professor R. Manivanan. Welcome, Professor. Thank you, sir. Thank you for joining us. Uh, you know, Dr. Qureshi, of course, uh, and, and your introduction is you are professor and head of the Department of Politics and Public Administration, University of Madras.
Prior to this, you taught at Delhi University for over 18 years. You're the author of [00:33:00] Sri Lanka hiding the elephant documenting genocide and war crimes and crimes against humanity. And your piece on the issue, which appeared in the express is also in the links in the show notes below. And we shall talk a little more about that.
Uh, just that we were discussing elections and related issues with Dr. Qureshi and Dr. Qureshi was just about to answer Manisha's Question on free and fair
Manisha: level playing field level playing idea of level playing field.
SY Quraishi: Yeah. You have not read my article, uh, which was mentioned in the beginning
Raman: because
SY Quraishi: that answers your question.
It is all about level playing
Raman: field. That's what he said.
SY Quraishi: What is the role of an umpire? And I said, uh, the laws that already there and election commission has acted in the past. Uh, in ensuring level playing field is our dharma, it is the keyword buzzword that is the first thing we are taught and for level playing field is absolutely necessary for free and fair election and free and fair [00:34:00] elections are a basic structure of the Constitution.
Therefore, whatever it takes. To, uh, conduct free and fair elections, we, we have to take step election commission has all the power in this article, which you missed and, uh, I will not forgive you for that
Audio insert: easily,
SY Quraishi: but you know, that I've argued in the past because, you know, we have another principle, which I've mentioned that what we follow is that something which can wait.
Must wait now, whether the rest of the two leaders and the, uh, what was happening to the, uh, accounts of, uh, the political parties, the track, uh, party, the opposition party, whether it could have waited. Hmm. One case is 39 years old, another case is seven years old. Could, did not have waited for three months.
Could the, uh, uh, has been going on for months or a couple of years. So [00:35:00] the election
Manisha: commission has the rights to kind of has enough power and teeth to say that.
SY Quraishi: Indeed. Indeed. If it can wait, it has to wait. Do you know, even the cabinet cannot bring up any agenda in it? Uh, what used to happen. They will pass some, uh, populist scheme and, uh, say that they, because of election commission, we cannot announce or implement it, but it was leaked out.
So we said nothing to you. You will not even bring up an agenda before, uh, in the cabinet, uh, because it can wait. Whatever her candidate has to wait for. But Dr. Qureshi,
Abhinandan: you know, just one thing, and I just want to give context to this. Manisha would not know because she did not read your article. And you know, that is unfortunate.
That is going to be my
Manisha: recommendation of the week to myself and to everyone else. Since
Abhinandan: I have read your article, there is, you know, you give the example of Chief Minister Parrikar in Goa. You called him up. He was planning to induct one more member in his cabinet. And it would, you know, disrupt the level fair and free and fair, etc.
Rather, it would. [00:36:00] It would be an incentive for whatever reason that in the middle of an election, you're inducting this new person, etc. You called him up. He was very agitated. We're just telling the audience, those of you who like Manisha have not read the article. Uh, that, you know, Dr. Qureshi called him up and said that you should not be in the middle of this election inducting this new member into your cabinet.
The chief minister got agitated. You had a word with him. Finally, and you said it's an advice. I'm giving you an advice that this is not appropriate, but so he, he did your advice. Do you think it's the same politics today? That's the
SY Quraishi: question. What do you mean? So you described it very well, but when he called me agitatedly, he said, this is my constitutional right to the point, anybody, any time I said, yes, absolutely it is your constitutional right, but it is only our advice.
In the interest of model code and his statement, which I quoted was brilliant. He said, uh, I something like I sacrificed my constitutional right, [00:37:00] uh, before the sanctity of the moral authority of the model code. So for him, the moral authority of the model code was more important than his constitutional right.
So that was the stressman like behavior we expect from politicians.
Abhinandan: Now, do you see those words exiting the lips of Yogi Adityanath or Hemanta Biswas Sharma or anyone else is what I'm saying that was your job a lot easier because politicians are a lot more decent.
SY Quraishi: Well, you know, there are politicians of all kinds at any point in time.
There will be many even now who would perhaps agree with me and Parikar, that was the same time, mind you, when the law minister of the land was violating the model code and we charge cheated him, we censured him. So same, same time, different responses. So that kind of different responses can be there all the time.
I'm sure some politicians would, and I've got a lot of feedback on that Manohar Parikar [00:38:00] incident, people appreciating that, they, you know, because people should know that there was a good politician who was so principled He sacrificed his constitutional right, mind you.
Raman: Dr. Qureshi, can you give some anecdotes, uh, you know, uh, during your time about the role of money that, uh, you know, role that money played, you know, in politics?
So, but we need to know anecdotes because we also want to assess it. And this is one money trail is one, the most difficult thing to, you know, track. So if you have anecdotes, this is going to help.
SY Quraishi: I will give you a few, you know, the, when I took over as the CEC in my inaugural press conference, I gave myself two challenges.
One was the voter apathy, particularly of the, uh, the urban so called educated people. And of the youth and women and the second was money power. We set up two new divisions to address this We had tremendous success in voter education creating [00:39:00] voter awareness every election after 2010 has seen Historic turnouts higher than ever before in increasing money power.
Initially. We had great success in my First book which was called an undocumented wonder Uh, the making of a great Indian election in a chapter on money power, I have given 40 modus operandi of cheating. And for instance, one of them was, um, all the, you know, you can't even offer a cup of tea to a voter.
It's a bribe, criminal offense, IPC offense. But what people used to do, they will have in the name of some mundane or birthday or something or the other fake party. So our observer went to some wedding party, 4, 000 guests and liquor flowing, chicken flying, and he wanted to greet the bride and bridegroom.
There was no bride and no bride. It was a wedding party. But to think that, to think that we are smart and we have controlled this for the future, no. Even now the fake parties will be happening. Now there will be a rented [00:40:00] bridegroom and a rented bride standing there with a printed invitation card. So these guys are ingenious.
They come up. And the way, you know, they used to carry money in ambulances. Now, we were very scared if we stop an ambulance and a patient dies, people will pillory us. So we said, don't stop the ambulance, chase it to the hospital only after it reaches hospital, then check it. You know, these kinds of incidents, uh, that book has a full chapter on.
Very interesting. In fact, I'll
Abhinandan: definitely pick up that book, but this gives Qureshi, and if any of the Shark Tank judges are watching, I have an idea for an episode. Zomato puts food, people who want to eat, and restaurants together. Uber puts people who want to take a cab. So if you're a political party and you want to have an event, where you want to slimely, you know, dole out dishes and parties, and if you are an individual or family who has an event but doesn't have the budget for it, Combined.
I will put together your event [00:41:00] and the people. So there's a bride and groom and a party, net net. So this is a fantastic business idea, Dr. Goreshi. But let me just segue a little to Professor Mani Vanan. Dr. Mani Vanan, uh, sorry, Professor Mani Vanan, you know, you are an expert in this area and your piece in the express, which people can read.
It is called the many truths of Kaccha TV. I may have mispronounced that that no party wants to acknowledge. Uh, the strap is current controversy should be seen as vote bank politics with little remorse shown for the loss of Indian territory or regard for the lives of fishermen and fisher women. So briefly, if you could just tell us, because this also become a huge election issue.
Uh, and of course, if you have any thoughts about generally what the election environment is like where you are, we would be, you know, interested and curious to see. But, net net, in brief, what is this issue and why do you think it is being raked up?
R. Manivannan: The Kachatipu issue has been there for the last, since 1974 and, [00:42:00] uh, in Tamil Nadu and as far as like in, with the, at the time of Indian independence, this territory has always been part of India.
Uh, but by 1974, the accord between the agreement between India and Sri Lanka, uh, results in ceding away of this territory, the first of all. But in my opinion, uh, in, uh, after the drafting of the constitution, the first thing that in the preamble and the first article one, which is clearly states, That like, you know, the seeding away of a territory has never been part of the, uh, the idea of, uh, the future of India and like, you know, we, we have no right to seed away any part of any part or any, uh, region in the country.
So this is the, this itself was a very big, uh, surprise or even about like, you know, major setback. Uh, this particular, this has been part of the, uh, Ramanathapuram king or what you [00:43:00] called as the. Ram and uh, this is within the revenue region of the Ram King also. So therefore, there are strong claims. To say that this has been historically part of India and then like, you know, we come to another reality by 1974 that the Indian fishermen have a kind of need to share the right of fishing in that region subsequently by 1976 and even the fishing rights for the Indian fishermen and particularly the Tamil fishermen.
Was removed in the 1976 agreement. So, um, this is then it has been politicized, like, you know, who is responsible? How did we, how did this part of territory being given to Sri Lanka? And then this has not been debated, like, you know, unfortunate thing and Indian politics and government is that. Like, you know, if mostly everything is partisan, like, you know, there is no kind of a state or like, uh,
Abhinandan: so if I, if I were to [00:44:00] just summarize professor, what you're saying is that in your view, uh, and I think that is what can correct me from where you have articulated in the column, you've written in the express also.
That the seeding of this island was culturally, regionally, uh, insensitive, a lot more should have been, you know, deliberated over that should have been seeded even when it was done by the Congress regime. However, um, you know, there was arrests of Indian fishermen that used to go there. Tamil fishermen, they used to get arrested like that kind of got resolved.
However, the current dispensation raking this up has not given any solution. They've, they've just rated up as cynical politics. That's what you're saying. No one is really care concerned, but, but, but we'll just come to that. But Raman, so you were telling me upstairs, the, uh, just tell us about how this became an issue on prime time who has not discussed how much of Indian territory China has taken or not taken that has never made [00:45:00] prime time, but this made prime time across channels.
It first broke without, you know, attributing motive to any one reporter or journalist, but so that we are, we're in court, but. What was the series of events that made this, this huge discussion considering till now no one has even, you know, spoken about this until just before the election?
Raman: Like, uh, Manisha said in the beginning, Anna Malai, he had filed an RTI.
So we got some information through that RTI and, uh, He filed an
Abhinandan: RTI with the?
Raman: And then it gets into the hands of the Times of India and they come up with a second lead on the front page. Uh, you know, it's a double byline, uh, and, uh, it gives a small, uh, you know, thing that how it was seeded. Uh, I immediately sensed that this is going to be orchestrated.
Why? Because Tamil Nadu is, you know, going to, uh, the election is, uh, in Tamil Nadu are going to happen in the first [00:46:00] phase. So I saw that Bill Gates, uh, interview with, uh, You know, Modi, where Modi, uh, gifted him everything from Tamil Nadu, so I, he was setting the tone, you know, for, uh, for, uh, for, for, for a BJP campaign for Tamil Nadu, you know, by gifting out a pearl or anything, all Tamil Nadu stuff.
So now, then, uh, Immediately subsequent to this second day, we I think the Bill Gate interview was the lead and the second lead was this story. So I immediately thought that this is going to be orchestrated. And immediately after that, we saw. Uh, the BJP spokespersons, then the prime minister himself, he, uh, you know, spoke about it and then it appeared in, uh, on TV, prime time.
It became a huge issue. So it was very well orchestrated and just for the elections, Tamil Nadu elections.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, Dr. Qureshi, if I could just come to you before I go back to the professor again, uh, the [00:47:00] RTI, I mean, if you have anything, you know, to add to the specifics of this, you know, fine. And RTI across many ministries, we hear, read articles all the time.
You don't get an answer here, this goes into appeal, that goes into appeal. Should, uh, the EC also be weighing in because transparency is an important part of the democratic process, right? Uh, and if I don't get information that I should get on how my. You know, funds are spent, uh, just like the electoral bonds, the whole fundamental logic that the Supreme Court gave is that the voter has a right to know, right?
So the voters right to know is basically is a function of the right to information, which is, you know, so in that sense of, do you think the CIC Has kind of failed the country considering the pendency of RTI, the amount of rejections that happen. I think there's just one or two punitive actions taken.
Although act, the act says that if the information is wrongly denied, [00:48:00] 25, 000 per day for the denial delay can be levied on the government official who gave, didn't give information. I think this has, I've actually, that order has been given only once, uh, just on RTI in general. And in this case in particular, do you have any thoughts?
SY Quraishi: Well, you know, the, when we comment on an institution, we should remember it is the incumbent who matters. Same institution, at one particular time, suppose you're dealing with the government of India undersecretary, and you have some problem and he's helpful to you, entire government of India is good for you.
If he's nasty and corrupt, The government becomes corrupt. So, uh, it is, uh, you cannot blame the institution. Institution has all the power. Institution has exercised those powers in the past. Some don't, some do. Therefore, it's a matter of, uh, uh, incumbent's attitude and the backbone or at least preferences, working style, uh, whatever, uh, you, you have.
So that is what we have to keep in mind. Coming [00:49:00] to this specific issue, we cannot fault it because Even if the some people say this is because of the election timing Uh, but at the same time, it is a right to know it's sacrosanct and, uh, if, uh, political parties are smart enough to dig out such issues and use them in the election, they cannot be faulted.
But
Manisha: this is where I think the level playing field matters because all channels have picked it up and ran it as, you know, Indira Gandhi's Congress basically gave Bharat But there has to be some crucial. Of course, all government, uh, decisions can be criticized, even the, you know, from Nehru to Indira to Modi to Manmohan.
But you have to give full information that we didn't, didn't just cede one island, we also got in return a resource rich maritime patch south of Kanyakumari, over which Sri Lanka gave up its claim. And they said, okay, this is fully, now we recognize it Indian territory. This is the region which sustains livelihood in [00:50:00] Kerala for fishermen.
And also, um, very rich in Fossil. And this, we have a very good piece on this Ben Ruma where she says that this year itself, Mohi government invited oil, uh, exploration in this region. So it's not a surprise to the Mohi government. I mean, clearly all are diplomats and everyone knows what happened in the seventies, who got what, so it was a seeding of territory.
I think that's, it was an exchange. And I guess you can say that you can question that decision or that who not
Abhinandan: sure,
Manisha: you know.
Abhinandan: Professor, in your view, what is the benefit cost benefit analysis of getting the maritime resources versus giving away an island, which apparently is 1. 6 kilometers by 300 meters.
That's the dimensions of it, right? At
Manisha: that time, I mean, at least that's what Nirbhana says, at that time it was pretty barren and it wasn't seen as strategic.
R. Manivannan: Like, you know, anytime, some, sometimes something stands barren in the history. So we can't justify saying that, like, you know, that was barren at that time.
And [00:51:00] like, in a lot part of our country, in different parts of this region, I've also been barren. We have not given our clients, given down our client. And secondly, about like, you know, see the maritime resources is like, you know, see, do we, what happens to the population that relies on fishing in that region?
That's the, that's the question.
SY Quraishi: Right.
R. Manivannan: And then, like, you know, Sri Lanka gave something back to us because like, but the point is both are in dispute. The both the what Sri Lanka gave and what Sri Lanka took. These two are disputed areas. So like, you know, by we can't just console, it's like saying, like, you know, you take half, I'll take half and both of us are happy.
But what have you traded is about the people and livelihood. And then like, you know, that's more important, actually, then. So what if, uh, what if I say that on both these territories, we have a stake? And then we got only one,
SY Quraishi: right?
R. Manivannan: And, uh, why, why would any country give away something without any kind of anything in a share dividend for them?
And so what we [00:52:00] gave up, not we gave away, we gave up the people. That's what is, it strikes me, actually. So when you say people, when you say people,
Abhinandan: just so I'm a little bit, is that in, uh, that island is not inhabited, is it? Or is it inhabited? No.
R. Manivannan: No, it's a, see, even about a very small, uh, people go to dry the nets, actually.
I see. And, but it's an important, um, access point and to go into the, uh, the ocean line
SY Quraishi: and
R. Manivannan: what they call the deep, uh, deep sea fishing activities.
SY Quraishi: Right.
R. Manivannan: And then also like, you know, it's a very, uh, a very high marine life is also there. But what today, like, you know, some of us are arguing about, like, you know, um, the, the potential of this exchange today, China is drying the nets there.
Oh, is that right? So we gave it to Sri Lanka and like, you know, see, we have an agreement, we have to respect the agreements. And therefore there is an agreement that including Nirupama Rao and then like, you know, Shiv Shankar Manon and many [00:53:00] others argue that this is an agreement we have to honor. But I would like to ask you about, like, you know, see, if we have given an agreement, we also signed an agreement on Indo Sri Lanka accord in 1987.
None of the provisions of that accord has been honored by the Sri Lankan government. And then, like, you know, see, without any territorial aspect, there are political aspects are also involved. So how another country honors an agreement is also important.
Abhinandan: I see. Uh, Raman, Manisha, do you have any questions before?
No,
Raman: today, uh, one former Sri Lankan diplomat, I think he was the defense minister also. So he said that, uh, it's very unfortunate that the issue has been rigged up for political reasons and maybe the present government will get some mileage. And, uh, he said, uh, going by the popular, you know, wave Modi may win.
The election. But after that, whatever has come out of his lips can now it is going to stay there is going to stay there. Now he says he fears that after [00:54:00] they come back to power now they are going to ask for the fishing rights over there. So there's an interview off of this gentleman in in the Indian Express today.
I
Abhinandan: mean, I think these days, at least with this government, they're not so self conscious about saying stuff that Amit Shah so
Manisha: many times in Parliament said Aksai Chinle aayenge, P. O. K.
Abhinandan: Exactly. In fact, according to some strategists, you know, geopolitical experts and pundits, the entire aggression of China was because of Amit Shah's speech in Parliament.
You know, that was what the provocation was, whether you want to believe them or not is a different matter. You know, coming to, for example, when Modi said ab ki baar Trump Sarkar and Trump lost. And it's a completely foolhardy thing. No serious prime minister who understands foreign policy would do such a thing.
But it did not. It's not like Biden. Yeah. Biden
Manisha: is happy. I mean, they've also been pretty
Abhinandan: soft on this. So I think we've come to an age where the transactional nature of politics has become so transparent that no one really [00:55:00] gives a, uh, Shit about the appropriateness of utterances anymore. So I don't think utterances matter at all, especially during You know political times, but you know, my last question to you professor is uh, if you know this entire full Information, you know is made available that we got x in exchange of y there are three aspects which are You know, central government, that is just how our constitution is, you know, with the concurrent state subject, central subject, which is, you know, the currency printing, et cetera, a defense and foreign policy.
This is going to be a foreign policy call. I mean, is it, I understand your sentiment that it is those people who are impacted, but will it inevitably not be a call of the central government and foreign policy and how should Territorial areas and borders and strategic islands extra be dealt with is, isn't there an inevitability to that or is there a solution
R. Manivannan: [00:56:00] in principle, you're right, actually, in principle, we are right.
But, uh, uh, if foreign policy is removed from the population and, uh, is foreign policy is not drafted on paper and it has to be based on certain substantial realities of people itself. This is the very the realm of the foreign policy. And then the second thing that you are saying about the central government.
And, uh, you, you take the case of West Bengal and then like, you know, whether in the East Pakistan case and then in, uh, in, in the Jammu and Kashmir region. And then like, you know, our, our border issues with Pakistan and like, you know, this is not going to be the central call, but you know, you are just, uh, it's, it also evokes a lot of emotions in different parts of the country.
So like policies reflect and then even in case of China, even in case of China that like, you know, uh, we have lost territories and we have not told, we have not informed people [00:57:00] like, you know, the extent of region territory occupied by the Chinese, but we keep negotiating with the Chinese and then we don't fully inform the people also.
On the other hand, then like, you know, attributing to certain parts of the country saying that these are sentiments, they are not sentiment, they are realities, they are realities of like, you know, they are substantial number of people or population depending on livelihood and other issues. Then if you say, or like, you know, by the opinion debate.
Like, you know, the center should decide, but the center is hardly. I mean, if you have, uh, not going by any, uh, political statements of the former prime ministers and leaders saying it's a piece of rock and nothing grows that like, that's what Nehru said in court, like, uh, in the, in the first time, the instance in 1956, and then like, you know, in the subsequently, like, you know, the Kabbalah Valley, Probably in the northeastern part in money pool and like, you know, 50, 000, 56, 000 square kilometer [00:58:00] regions were given away to our peace.
The foreign policy issues with the neighboring countries like no Myanmar and to buy peace with our neighbors. Now, like, you know, why do we give? I mean, like, you know, India is, I mean, we all respect, we all respect our constitution and we are not by culturally and invading country historically and culturally and politically.
But like, you know, we also need to defend our territory and like, you know, this is a kind of, um, um, what you call a complimenting aspect of our governance system. So when the state and in the name of the center state relations, the center regards certain parts of the country as highly sensitive parts and like, you know, Defines the national consciousness on those centralities, and then like, you know, undermines the national consciousness and reduces the national consciousness to very regional sentiments.
And this is, uh, and calling that as a foreign policy is not fair.
Abhinandan: Um, you want to [00:59:00] weigh in on this, Dr. Qureshi, before I have just one more little segue to talk about on any of the issues you've discussed right now? No, no,
SY Quraishi: no, not at
Abhinandan: all. Okay. One, uh, I mean, I get exactly what you're saying, professor, but just one little, um, you know, I mean, I don't know, I've heard many people say it, and I used to kind of consider it as a given, but when I started reading a little more about this, this entire, uh, you know, thing that has been created and even politicians that we are culturally Not, we don't invade others.
I'm not sure that's true. I mean, you know, the Chola dynasty, even Ashoka, the Maurya dynasty, we did not want to cross the Himalayas because they were just so intimidating, but, you know, they happily invaded each other. You know, that, which is the islands where everybody goes for holidays these days. Hindu?
No. Maldi Maldive, mal Maldi? No, no. The there is the, all those Hindu temples that, [01:00:00] oh, what's Cambodia?
Manisha: Cambodia, you
Abhinandan: know. Oh, Cambodia's, Cambodia.
Manisha: Bali has, I mean, so,
Abhinandan: I mean, yeah. I, I'm just not convinced of that. You know, what you just mentioned. Okay. Is it Sure, sure. Uh, you, you wanna qualify that?
R. Manivannan: Uh, no, I don't want to qualify what I said.
I said like, you know, um, this is our consciousness. Like, you know, we don't invade others. And then like, you know, I, I definitely agree with you. This is a historical thing. Like, you know, it's not, um, it's not simply right on me to say that, like, you know, uh, but when we are talking about the, uh, what we are saying about In the modern or in the post independent history, and historically, I totally agree with you like, you know, I stay on the east coast.
I know the impact of what Cambodia and the Southeast Asian countries, but where, like, you know, much more than the political significance, like, you know, the invasions historically what you call is like, you know, in terms of going back [01:01:00] and forth. We look at it. We see today, even in the cultural sense, But not necessarily like, you know, having an empire set up there.
And, uh, so this is something what I, I had meant, but I certainly, I, I agree with your statement that like, you know, uh, all cultures, all societies carry some political, uh, myths. Right. And like, you know, we are all human. Sure. And I guess in comparison
Manisha: to imperialist powers or say like Turks and all, we didn't go that far.
Right.
Abhinandan: But thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Uh, before we say goodbye to you, would you like to recommend any piece of writing or a book or an article or a movie or a series that would enrich the lives of our listeners?
R. Manivannan: Oh, certainly there are, there are, uh, many things that, at least two, one book I would like to recommend is like, because we are in the middle of the elections.
One is that, uh, GA Lowry, uh, that's a, uh, corrupt practices that elections in India, [01:02:00] like, you know, it's a very interesting work, right? And then there's a corrupt practices that elections actually. So like, you know, with all respect to the election commission in this country and, um, and also like, you know.
Politicians like, you know, how smart every other institutions and structures, something, uh, some glimpses can be seen in this book.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much. And thank you for your time. And we look forward to more of your writing and the link to your book is in the show notes. So our audience can click on that and check that out.
Yeah.
Raman: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Abhinandan: So Dr. Qureshi, uh, you know, before we wind up, just want to discuss a little more about elections, but before that, I want to remind our listeners. Do contribute and ensure that our reporters have the resources that are required to report, uh, because they will be traveling to several states.
The News Minute News Laundry team together with one mystery surprise, um, reporter that you have seen for over two decades on broadcast television [01:03:00] will hopefully be a part of our team only if we can afford to have another couple of people join us. And that isn't really up to you. So in the show notes.
There is links to our NLCNR projects, I please recommend you click on that and if you have others who you think would be happy to contribute to independent media, do click on that. Uh, and I would just quickly, I was talking about Praful Patel. This is from April 23rd. 3, 2010, the Indian Times of India article.
Headline is Praful Patel's daughter pulled out scheduled Air India flight for IPL. I quote, a Delhi to Coimbatore Air India flight IC7603 scheduled to leave at 5. 20am on April 20 was aborted less than 12 hours before his departure to allow the aircraft to be deployed as a chartered flight for ferrying Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel's daughter Poorna Patel and some IPL players from Chandigarh to Chennai.
And, uh, in fact, passengers booked on that flight were put on a Coimbatore Mumbai Delhi flight. [01:04:00] reassigned. It was a huge storm that caused, but now, of course, he's part of them. So it doesn't matter. So that's where we are. But, but Dr. Gurevich, Kaash, main bhi bolta. Aaj mujhe Chandigarh mein party. Aaj Pavani Chandigarh mein hai.
Daddy, just change that flight and just send it with me and my friends. We'll go party elsewhere. And Prabhat Patel says hum toh desh ke liye kaam kar raha hai. Aar sharam bhi nahi aati inko. Matlab, dele bar ki sharam bhi aati. But, uh, Dr. Gureshi, you know, elections in India are so enormous, they're so huge.
I, you know, when you were telling us earlier that from the time the final list is prepared, is when the programming has to start, because then you know who all are on that list. So, uh, Give us an idea of the scale, because I know Discovery or someone had made a show on Indian election and I remember watching it.
I know it's going to be very difficult in like five minutes, but give us an idea of the scale of how many people you're dealing with. I mean, do you guys pull all nighters when the election is like [01:05:00] when it's supposed to start tomorrow? You know, like students were writing board exam, last three nights there's no sleep.
And then when do you get your first good night's sleep? After when?
SY Quraishi: Well, let me answer the last question first. After the results are out and our role is over, that is when we take rest and, uh, otherwise, you know, the scale, there is nothing, no exercise on earth, which is of this scale, not just, uh, not only that, this is the greatest, biggest election in the world, election, it is the biggest management event of any kind in the world, because we have to reach 140 billion people, and we have to reach 140 billion people.
To find out who among them are eligible, we give them the application, they fill out, we take the picture, we make the card. And 15 million people are all government servants are our staff, the bureaucrats whom you contemptuously called as babus. They deliver a zero [01:06:00] error election every time when they come under us.
And about the scale, imagine 90 countries going to election at the same time. That is India. We have more voters than all 50 countries of Europe put together. 53 of Africa put together. There are 54 countries in North and South America. I didn't even know there are so many countries there. All of them put together an entire commonwealth and even that is not enough.
Every continent is one half of India, 90 countries rolled into one is India's election and all the problems of those countries we have in India. And we deal with them effortlessly, smoothly. In fact, what happens is the electoral controversies over the modern court. Violation was, uh, attended to properly did that two, three foot, uh, five controversial issues.
Uh, the, the take the, uh, uh, limelight, but the scale, uh, the, the magnitude and the teamwork, which goes behind it, [01:07:00] uh, which is, which was the theme of my first book and undocumented wonder. Mm. And this was the name which I picked up from an, uh, article by a journalist friend of yours. Who was very critical of us and I said, look, you know nothing go and see what we do when he went to the field when he went to Dm Noida's office and he wrote a brilliant Article three pages in governance now, which I've reproduced in the book.
Um, He said that that is something which needs to be telecast live for the nation's confidence. So, you know, all those things completely are The, the, uh, the side, the sideline, or should I say the, the
more, uh, the using, uh, inspired by the, the word you use two, three times, which I would not normally use , but something more sexy. So the, we are by the sexier [01:08:00] thing. , you know, the, the Harvard, uh, management, uh, case study, how we do it, and Effortly every time with zero error. Zero error means zero error. We were discussing, uh, for instance.
Mm. Do you know there is a, a polling station which is 1200 kilometers from India mainland. And only 85 kilometers from Somatra in Indonesia, there also, we have to give you as good an election as in Connaught Place of Delhi. And nobody talks about it. Nobody even knows about it. And how even one vote counts, as somebody had asked me earlier about anecdotes, one anecdote here about the importance of one vote.
Abhinandan: Ah, that's correct. Who went on foot, eight, eight people went on foot to let that one in the, it's somewhere in the Northeast, right? No,
SY Quraishi: no, no. That was in the Ghee Forest of Gujarat. Yeah, no, but then another story, which I mentioned in the book, in Rajasthan, Mr. CP Joshi was the candidate, he was [01:09:00] the Congress president, and he would have been chief minister if he had won, he lost by one vote.
When he was losing, he called up a returning officer, he said, please, can you recount the postal ballots? Because they're physical, so 550, he said, all right. 20 minutes. It was the same result. He called up again. Can you re tabulate the totals from the machine? Because that we do physically, there may be human error.
We did that another 15, 20 minutes, same result. He thanked and moved on. So the side story here is number one, that his career changed because of, one interesting side story is his wife had not voted , so.
I said, Jayshatab, we heard that your wife didn't vote, and he [01:10:00] said, yes, it's a fact. He said, my wife and my daughter went to a temple, which is a little far, they couldn't come back. So we took three lessons from this. Number one, every vote counts. Number two, you can't take even your family for granted, particularly wife.
Number three, uh, on the day of poll, Uh, the most important temple is the polling
Abhinandan: station. Very correct. So it works. So I would like to get other two panels also favorite election stories. I have two of my favorite election stories are election related or polling related. One is when I went to shoot a show.
Uh, this is for discovery at Mysore, where the ink is made. Yeh election ki jo ink hai, wo Mysore mein factory hai. And apparently it is the only place where the ink is made. The chairperson of that has the formula of that ink so that it is done. And when he relinquishes it, it's in a safe over there. That keys to that is given to the next person who heads that.
I don't know what it's called. So the factory that makes that ink, it's in Mysore, I'm sure you've been [01:11:00] there. Mysore paints. Mysore paints, right? And that ink is exported to many countries around the world because even they don't make that ink, uh, how many, 30 countries, right? And the second thing is I've recently participated in the campaign.
My first vote, because there's some misled people like actually, uh, Dr. Qureshi is an accomplished, he's a senior man. Even he has started using bad language. But, but, uh, apparently this person I'd met who heads this youth organization around the world, they are running this campaign, My First Vote, uh, in which they have many brand ambassadors.
So you had to say, could you please record your message and send, we want to share it. And I never realized my first vote is on camera. Can you imagine? And those days it wasn't so strict because back in the 95, 96, 97, you know, there were just two cameras, Doordarshan and NewsTrack. There was no third news platform.
So we were doing a joint production with [01:12:00] the BBC, News Track and BBC for Doordarshan. And at that time, uh, by this thing in Lodhi Estate, there was one place where, and it was paper ballot. And things were very casual back then. They allowed the camera all the way in. So my piece to camera was, this is Abhinandan Sekhri voting and reporting.
And then I put my vote in, thakak! And when I went back to office, they were like, Nikku, lovely piece to camera, maza aagaya! Today of course you can't take a camera right and you can't even take a bloody phone. But, it, it was much better innocent times and I remember I, I've mentioned this when Sushma Suraj was coming out, I asked her, what is Going to be a priority because she was, I think, contesting.
So she said, nursing my constituency. So I misheard as Narsimha Rao constituency. So I said, Narsimha Rao, she just turned around, doubted me. Can't you hear? Why would I say Narsimha Rao constituency? But what about your first vote or any favorite?
Raman: So I come from Noida, so I have a very [01:13:00] cynical attitude towards my vote.
I feel that my vote is never going to count.
Abhinandan: Sir, we have to teach him. But, but, however, however,
Raman: however, I have voted every time.
Abhinandan: That's very good.
Raman: Okay, but yes, I become cynical. But yet I vote. And yes, I mean, my days also, as a reporter, it was very good. I mean, we had very easy access. Everywhere. Unlike, unlike today, today we don't have, uh, you know, that kind of access.
But Ali, we used to have very good access and, uh, we were able to cover. But as reporter, we are tuned to look at the, you know, wrong things that are happening. Sure. And that is your job and
Abhinandan: you should, uh, so,
Raman: so, so that is why I. Would mostly end up, you know, counting those all. I think he's, Dr. Qureshi has said it very rightly, gigantic
SY Quraishi: exercise.
And
Manisha: actually when you go on the ground and you witness, uh, people voting, the cynic in you through the year who's pointing at, you know, issues [01:14:00] and God knows now we have so many issues at institutions. It is kind of hopeful to see a lot of people come out, to see election commission enabling voters, old people being catted, you know, in sort of sometimes in like makeshift carts to come and vote.
It is quite, that cliche, I think festival of democracy is quite, quite true when you're on the ground.
Abhinandan: There's no doubt about that. There have been documentaries made on that. The only one thing is, and I don't think that's unique, you know, and we let Dr. Qureshi have the last word on that, uh, Dr. Qureshi, you know, everything you said, much appreciated, you know, the election commission has been an institution that has actually not kept pace with the deterioration of others, such as the media and much else.
Media is
Manisha: very low bar.
Abhinandan: But media has been an institution, but you know, I mean, remember it was the same media that, uh, where all the editors are not sure he took out a protest march against this one's bill that was introduced Rajiv Gandhi's today you see how they're saluting, you know, Modi. [01:15:00] So I mean, media has, of course, deteriorated to a different level.
I know that's culturally that's true. You know, the professor, the whole cultural generalization that I kind of objected to, I'm guilty of doing the same right now. But This overemphasis on politeness and, you know, uh, we are always, I think ultimately we have no hesitation in jhadoing someone who is in a position of weakness.
and being very polite to someone who's in a position of power. For example, when you're influential and can afford a ticket, today I'm offered all the passes in the world for this concert and that, I can afford it. When I couldn't afford jack shit, no one offered me a pass. In fact, our co founder Madhu was telling me the same thing.
She was like, you know, when I was young, I couldn't go here, there. Today you don't have to buy tickets, people are sending you passes for such major events, like international events. Similarly, When there has been an indiscretion or not just an indiscretion, a [01:16:00] violation, why is the CIC like that punitive action of 25, 000 rupees per day that they can take or the CEC?
While I understand the logistical aspect is that whole thing that, you know, we will not, we will not go so far as to like, if I had done what Mr. Ravi did, the Tamil Nadu governor, I'd be in for contempt of court. There's no question of me being given a second chance. Why? Is the, the fear of straight away.
If you have violated, there will be punitive action. Do you think we need a little more punitive action by all agencies, especially the election commission?
SY Quraishi: Yes, indeed. We were, we must use because the constitution and the law, they've given us the power. And the power is given to be used, not for the record.
So if we don't use the power, we are failing ourselves and failing the nation, failing the institution.
Abhinandan: And why do you think it is not used enough? You think people just tend to watch out for each other at their own level because, you know, senior [01:17:00] bureaucrats and politicians socially know each other. They work, work.
Is it a social thing?
SY Quraishi: Well, you know, it's a question of personality. Everyone has it his own style. As a, uh, strength of the backbone, uh, the strength of the conscience, they, they vary. So there are various factors for this. And some people are, uh, you may call them trigger happy. Some will call them timid. So there are all kinds of people, but I think we need to be assertive because the power is given to election commission, particularly has been given the power, judiciary has been given the power to exercise it, not to be a pussy footing, but to use it effectively.
And when we have used it effectively, it has paid us dividends. We have become a global guru in election. Hillary Clinton called our elections as a gold standard. So we have earned that reputation because of something which we have done right in the last 70 years. So we need to be assertive, [01:18:00] conscious of our power.
There is no shortage of power. We need to use it at the same time, not being trigger happy.
Abhinandan: Sure. So thank you for that. Thank you for your time. Always a pleasure to have a conversation with Dr. Qureshi. We always learn so much and it is very satisfying. And also I do get some hope. Uh, but before we say goodbye to you, What would you recommend for our listeners and viewers?
SY Quraishi: Uh, uh, if you, if uh, you don't find it embarrassing, I'm gonna recount my own book.
Abhinandan: Of course. Yes. We, we do that all the time.
SY Quraishi: Two for two reasons. One, nobody else recommends this . And secondly, this is secondly, this is indeed the best book. And I'm telling you, and I'm not joking because it's my book, it's a collection of my published articles.
You discussed one of my articles, right? So as where people discuss my previous articles. All hot topics of the election. You wanted to know you have ever are. They're all here. So [01:19:00] it is a dictionary for me. Also, when you asked me to write an article on the election, I, it is very easy for me. I pick up my book.
Read my previous 10 articles. The material is all there. I, uh, give you the 11th article. In no time. So this is a good book. But in case, in this age of giving options, I give you the choice of a better book. Which is called an Undocumented Wonder. It is written by a better author. Called a vibration . So this was written in 2014, updated in thousand 19 election.
Okay. You can see the update. So, which is a totally different style. This is the evolution of election commission, historical perspective, and this is, uh, almost a textbook and half the democracies of the world.
Abhinandan: So the links to both the books are in the show notes below. Do pick it up, educate yourself about democracy, inform yourself, answer you're saying.
If
SY Quraishi: Manisha sends me her postal address with the phone number, [01:20:00] I'll send it to her on the promise that she will read it and you will certify it. Done, sir.
Abhinandan: Done, please. And then we'll have a conversation about the book specifically. In fact, after elections are over. We should have a podcast specifically because we had one.
Let's talk about
Manisha: election. I was just going to say that. So
Abhinandan: it's already on my notes here. I'm making notes even as you speak. We
Manisha: should do it during the elections,
Abhinandan: but you're traveling. No, I'll do it then. Okay. Okay. See my, my investment has paid back. Absolutely, sir. Always . Always one should always try persevere.
And it it, it does come around. It does. But thank you so much. Thank you so much. This is not just a promise, this is Nick Cookie guarantee that we'll do a podcast on this . We'll do a podcast on this. And if, uh, the team is traveling,
SY Quraishi: which is.[01:21:00]
All the hot topics
Abhinandan: are on this. The past
SY Quraishi: and future. They're all here.
Abhinandan: Done this. This should be interesting. But thank you for joining us. Have a good weekend, sir, and we shall see you once we are recording this podcast.
Raman: Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Abhinandan: And on that note, before we go on to the emails, and there are many this week, uh, of critique, inputs, feedback, I'd like to remind you to please contribute because the expenses this month and the next month and the month after that are going to be significant at News Laundry, and we cannot cover the election as robustly as we'd like unless you step up and contribute because we do not take any ads.
So click. On the link in the NL Sena below, or just go on to newslondon. com, click on the NL Sena button, or just click on subscribe. If you're already a subscriber, get someone else to subscribe, but we need to have [01:22:00] this growth of subscription driven of citizen driven journalism. Uh, so that one doesn't have to depend on big industrialists and government budgets.
Yes, we only entertain the letters of those who are subscribers. So if you're not a subscriber, you can mail us We will not really read it here. We have
Manisha: 18. Do we read all of them?
Abhinandan: No, we can read a few. I read two of them are very, very good. I think actually we should read the very, very good ones. We should send those as newsletters.
There is no need to write our newsletters. But we can send a couple of those. But we will read some and we'll keep some for next time. But you mail us at podcasts at newslearn. com. I repeat podcasts at newslearn. com. At newslondon. com, please keep your letter less than 150 words, or you can click on a link in the show notes that will direct you to a box that will open and you can give your feedback there and then, but only for subscribers.
So Manisha, take it away, please.
Manisha: Okay. So anonymous says this is regarding the discussion on DU professors. We know that BJP has [01:23:00] appointed VCs. which have links to RSS. However, they seem to be packing all levels at DU with people aligned with RSS and not just the top level. It seems impossible to get hired as a faculty at DU if the candidates doesn't, don't have any direct links to, any links to RSS.
Highly qualified candidates with extremely strong research and teaching experience don't stand a chance if they don't come with RSS links. This is not limited to social science departments, but even pure sciences. Agenda seems to be complete institutional change which lasts for decades. In fact, the Scenic School story this week was quite troubling.
Yeah.
Raman: Now,
Manisha: Rathambra
Raman: is deciding the fate of the students.
Manisha: And in fact, our colleague Prateek had done a very good story on the MP exams. Yeah. All of them were linked directly or indirectly
Raman: to ours. Very
Manisha: good story. Excellent story. N747 was jolted by comments of Anas, had been a staunch supporter of uniformity.
I thought it was essential in front of law. But when Anas asked the question, my other beliefs, It came to the forefront. We don't expect everyone to [01:24:00] wear the same size clothes. North Korea. Wink. Even in education, we go through the different exams after secondary school where a diversity of passing marks is allowed with scoring best of five.
Even in my professional work, I had been the first to show up in full beard in office back when it was not allowed and my office desk is littered with tiny trinkets considered unsightly and unprofessional by some. Even though I was rebelling against authority in personal professional space, I could not understand why I supported UCC.
Thanks, Anas, for strong views and even passionate defense. My opinion, my opinion on UCG was irrational, not well thought out. Unity in diversity doesn't mean that we find common grounds and does mean that we find common grounds and not enforce uniformity.
Abhinandan: Uh, which Anas is? Anas
Manisha: Tanvir who came one hafta, you weren't there I wasn't there.
Abhinandan: Okay. So, if I could just quickly take it to that email that I thought was, you know, Very articulate and very well expressed complexity. It is by Anonymous. 617 words, so I won't read all of them. [01:25:00] In fact, we'll consider if we can send this as a newsletter. But Anonymous says, Abhinandan twice in the last couple of weeks suggested what seems to be deeply held conviction that Quote unquote, Indians prefer to be ruled or have an inkling towards autocratic leaders.
Mentioned again last week with reference to the PEW research study. I personally think talking about voters political behavior and rational rationale, rationale through data led research where things are generalized and broken down in numbers is a poor way to understand individual rationale and a simple yes no answer to questions will miss out the nuances, et cetera, et cetera.
There is a distinction between autocratic leader and a dictator, I'm assuming. These are being used interchangeably. Therefore, I would like to keep my point in relation to the word dictator. As regards to Indians wanting dictatorship, it seems to me this phenomenon has more to do with the communication gap due to one not having a common ground.
In fact, later in the same episode while discussing Sharia law, Abhinandan mentioned how each scholar brings his own interpretation on the table. Similar thing is happening with this whole dictatorship debate. [01:26:00] Abhinandan's uncomfortably, Abhinandan's uncomfortably, Uncomfortability seems to be stemming from the way he is contextualizing a dictator, as someone who rules in accordance to his own will and dominates others to submission.
Whereas Manisha I feel is more attuned to how perhaps people are contextualizing a dictator, that is, as someone who can get the job done. This is the dictator, it seems to me, people are voting for rather than someone who would rule over them. And then, uh, you know, you know, Anonymous has gone on to also say that if one really believes that in politics, only things that matter is security and life's interests, and we only need a leader who can get things done, one would have no reason to reject a dictator.
If anything, he is in a perfect position to deliver security and get things done, as he will not be hindered by any intervention of different voices among his equals while striving to get things done. But it's an interesting, long term question. letter about dictatorship and how people view it differently.
So that was the one that I thought was interesting. And [01:27:00] I mean, our debate about dictators last time, I think anonymous has very
Manisha: well, well, your
Abhinandan: definition, my definition of the, what you're debating is different.
Manisha: Actually. Yeah. Maybe one for one of the half does we should get Hillel to also be in, and maybe one of the, in the run up to elections, we can, you know, Because I think it's interesting.
We've been discussing this a lot. Voter choices. Why do we vote the way we do? What do we think? Authoritarian dictator versus strongman. Could be interesting to get him. Okay. So, Atin says, Hi team, just wanted to highlight that most of the people in the media landscape and otherwise use the word ruling party.
To me, this is wrong. We should use governing party. Abhinandan has been saying this since 2012. So, uh, yeah, we agree. And we try, I mean, I think when we speak, we, I invariably end up saying ruling party. But I think we have an editorial policy to not write. It's governing party mostly. So let's continue the good work.
I've been a subscriber since the beginning and listening and reading to NLs since Dhobi Ghat.
Abhinandan: Thank you, Athin. That's a long time ago, but like she said, [01:28:00] since 2012, we had this that we will not use ruling party, but I think it slips out every now and then. Yeah.
Manisha: Vinay says, Vinay Kumar says, I was looking into some current affairs news and found few appointments were closely linked to NLs.
Withholding power from CAG, CBI, ECI and courts to an higher position. This is how I guess there are less CAG reports and no action of institutions. Although, there's been, there's been, there's been quite a few CAG reports that we've reported. Yeah, but
Abhinandan: they don't get the play they used to.
Manisha: Ah, in the media, yeah, yeah.
That's true. That's very true. Um, this suggestion, so he's suggesting that we should talk about. Take
Abhinandan: up CAG. In fact, we had one piece based on a CAG report a while ago. Two, I think. CAG?
Raman: CAG is a huge thing. I mean, if we have resources, CAG gives you a lead.
Abhinandan: But you have to follow that lead yourself.
Raman: And that takes
Abhinandan: real
Raman: good time.
But it will definitely give us leads.
Manisha: Anonymous says it's unfair to say that we didn't see it coming in 2014 on [01:29:00] what's in store with Modi government. We already heard about Ishan Jafri case. Other cases where he completely eliminated, controlled the opposition parties in Gujarat. Modi Does nothing that is surprising.
On Raga, I think it's courage to be bullied by the entire nation for over a decade and still be in the fight. He's the only politician who constantly spoke on Adani, Rafale. Regional parties have been successful in state elections. I think he deserves more credit than what he gets. Our nation has been hijacked by criminals who have extorted a lot of money, which makes them efficient.
You give so many resources to Congress and see what they can do. Or maybe not, because with money, you need, you also need a dead conscience to do what the government is doing. Amidst cry for a strong leader, I think there's space left for a compassionate, democratic leader.
SY Quraishi: Anonymous
Manisha: says, I want to share something with regard to your assessment of social media making it easy for nutters to find each other.
I was not on any platform except Twitter, and I barely even logged into that. Recently, I had for a work related, thing. I had to for a work [01:30:00] related thing and since I follow some people like Manisha, who sometimes criticizes the country and the government, I suppose Twitter thought I'm anti India. And in the For You page, I got exposed to vile, racist, anti India stuff.
And I even got to learn a new racist slur used against Indians. My God. I reported the account, but nothing happened for about five days and the account continued to spew hateful diatribes and content against the country and its people. Just deleted my Twitter account for the sake of my own self. This is so dangerous,
Sting: ya.
But this is the whole thing of social media. And this
Manisha: aligns with what the Modi government wants to paint journalists as who do whatever criticism they do. Hi, NL team. Thanks for all the reports. I've been following Hafta Charcha for last couple of months. I was a subscriber a few years back and was not able to continue my subscription.
However, I feel good to be back. Thank you, Manpreet. This is from Manpreet.
Abhinandan: Three cheers for Manpreet for coming back as a subscriber.
Manisha: Questions regarding Abhinandan's comment. Something on the lines that we Indians are conditioned with hierarchy and it comes from the caste system. Not sure if you put the responsibility of that on the people who still believe [01:31:00] in hierarchy.
I think it's not the failure of modernized people who still believe in hierarchy and don't question power. It's collective failure of us, the privileged class, that they still live with the psyche of obeying people above in the hierarchy. Please provide more clarification on that. I love the work NLTNM do, I'm eagerly waiting for the joint election coverage.
Actually, they are more subservient to the ruling class. No, but Manpreet, I
Abhinandan: wasn't saying that the people who are marginalized are responsible for our, you know, being obsessed with hierarchy and obeying. Because of the caste system, everybody follows that. For example, um, and I give the same example each time.
If you ever really closely interacted with bureaucrats in an official position, the difference is, there's always a difference in how we speak to each other. Like, for example, the way, you know, I will speak to an intern is not how I'll speak with Raman sir. Okay. There is a difference. So I'm not saying everybody's, [01:32:00] but the difference is not like, like this, like, for example, in India, it is acceptable.
The way I'll speak to Darbhanu who opens the door for me and how I'll speak with prime minister Modi. In one case I'll be like, if you saw Arun Puri's behavior, it is not the behavior of anyone who has any shred of dignity or self respect. He's one of the, you know, huge, you know, stalwarts and, you know, one of the top 0.
1 percent. The same man, you see how he talks to someone? Who is way lower down in the hierarchy.
You're literally, and on the other, you are being completely, you know, disrespectful. I think that is generally a tendency of us as a people and that extends across the social strata. And I've given this example many times on hafta as well. The people who are cruelest to others are also the way the guard, heta colonies, the way he will.
Tell her, a [01:33:00] BMW that doesn't have the colony sticker. jaaye. As opposed to someone who comes in a cycle. You see how he talks to him. We are obsessed with that. So, it's, it's, it's, it's everywhere. But the cause is the caste system, in my view.
Manisha: Shikhar says Mrs. Sonia Gandhi was the fulcrum that paved way for the success of Congress in 2004.
It was all pre election efforts. Sitaram Kesri was ousted much before elections by Sonia Kotri and made Congress President. For Abhinandan in the last episode bulldozed on the basis of his NDTV stint. Listeners also have their understanding of events. Not only Nidhya Choudhury, but writings of Harish Khare, Komi Kapoor all testify.
Madam Sonia's contribution to Congress success. Are you from Congress? Because Madam Sonia is very specific Congress. So he says mandate is for her. And
Abhinandan: yeah. So, no, I would disagree with you, Shikhar. I don't recall any mandate being. Sonia can be held responsible for [01:34:00] Congress. getting the Congress flock together and, you know, getting it as a power again.
But, but that is structurally within the organization. I, I don't know. So if you remember, it
Raman: was,
Abhinandan: I don't remember the, the, the Congress campaign being that Sonia Gandhi is, I mean, no, I don't remember her being the face of the Congress in any significant way. And in fact, later, someone has said that it is she who ousted Kesri and not the other way around.
It really depends on how old you are. When I was in news track, there was this very famous Uh, AICC session. I don't know whether you remember when Kesri took over the Congress, Sonia was so upset that she got up and she walked out because the Congress office and her residence were fairly close.
Raman: Kesri was treasurer, I think.
Yeah, he was treasurer.
Abhinandan: And then she just left because how she was bulldozed in that meeting about eight, ten people followed, tried to get her in and Kesri didn't get, you know, tried to release. And, uh, so a lot of people whose memory only starts from 2004 onwards say, Oh, when did that [01:35:00] happen? Beta, the world didn't start when you were born.
There was a world before that also, which you may have been a chooza, uh, chugoing dana. Uh, this goes on to some, some, some jokers who, who on Twitter said, Oh, this never happened. Sonia Ousted. I was like beta, usse pehle bhi Congress thi. So anyway, I don't, I don't know. Of course someone could disagree, but Sonia was not the utter of the BJP or the Modi of the,
Manisha: for sure.
I think even Al was not the Modi in that sense because of so many things, social media, media, me, you know, everything. So it wasn't a presidential style election. But I do think Sonya being, by virtue being the leader of opposition by simply the way she attacked the whole India Shining thing, went from, you know, campaign to campaign and the Motley crew of Stall Congress leaders around her were.
Pretty much, I think, the face of that election. Anyway, Priyank says, Abhi, being the subject matter, just congratulating him on finally being the apparent lefty WhatsApp uncle without [01:36:00] WhatsApp. You conveniently forget that it's your subscriber base that is more educated and apply the same logic to the larger population.
You truly are the editorial elite, detached from the ground. For the degree fied Dumbo middle class, the next central figure of Indian polity, even if hated, will be Raga in post Modi world. I didn't understand. I
Sting: don't
Abhinandan: understand.
Manisha: And the next central figure of Indian polity, even unfortunate Ragga,
Abhinandan: I'm not sure.
Manisha: But also you didn't support Ragga,
Abhinandan: did you? No, I didn't support Ragga. I, I think this is because, um, I mean to many it's, or maybe they seem that I was me. Ali means bu ab probably. Are
Manisha: we being the subject matter?
Abhinandan: Maybe me.
Manisha: I have no idea. Yeah. Abhi is you only. Priyank, we are confused. But
Abhinandan: Priyank, the one thing that I will say is that, and this is where Modi Shah's politics, they understand, you know, the insight into the Indian public mind is astute.
[01:37:00] Why they think Arvind is the most dangerous out of all the opposition leaders. And that is because Arvind has a pan India acceptability that neither does Mamata nor does Stalin. You see Mamata is very Bengali. And Stalin is very Tamil and they get the only person who can, you know, appeal to Gujarat, appeal to parts of North, appeal to parts of South.
Arvind doesn't have that. He's a bingo, you know, and that is why he's the bigger danger. So in my view, that's the only thing Raga has going for him, that he has this. He's not seen as a, as, as one part, whereas just because of the oral personalities, how they talk, et cetera, Mamata and Stalin are, though in sheer numbers, they command a bigger, you know, slice of the population, bigger seat share, et cetera, than Kejriwal or, you know, many others.
But that whole pan India ness, which is a North bias, is what makes him, and [01:38:00] no, I don't think Raga will be the rallying point anytime soon.
Manisha: So Chandrasekhar has the same point, saying that Sitaram Kesri, uh, Sonia Gandhi was nobody in two. So he's basically saying that you said that she was nobody in 2004 elections and Sitaram Kesri sidelined her.
But the fact is Kesri was removed as Congress president in March 1998. Congress and Congress was Sonia was Congress and UPA president in 1998. And she says while most political experts predicted NDA victory in 2004, it was all so common knowledge that at that time, if UPA won, Sonia would be PM.
Nevertheless, I agree with the overall point made by Aminan and Raman. It's not presidential style election on who will be PM until 2014
Abhinandan: Kar. I I, no, this is,
Manisha: I don't
Abhinandan: agree with that because I mean, I dunno whether I, I dunno which book or article I've got this from, but basically the kids insisted Sonya will not become pm She will not take over because they were too scared of losing her as well.
They had lost their [01:39:00] grandmother.
Manisha: Now this
Abhinandan: doesn't add up for me. If UPA winning was a possibility that was discussed and it had been decided that if she wins, Sonia will be PM. Then why did she not become PM? I mean, then if that was what was the rallying point. Rahul Gandhi woke up then, Oh mama, you cannot become. And then she said, Okay, I will not become.
I mean, you're saying that all this was decided and at the end when they won, then she said, No, I will not become today. They didn't expect it. And which is why. At that time, they had to find a prime minister. So it doesn't add up like the both contradict each other. If it was decided that she will become, then why did she not become?
If Rahul had to dig his heels in, wouldn't he have dug his heels in earlier or they were sure they would not win. In which case, my point is right that she was nobody. In fact, all
Raman: the
Abhinandan: predictions
Manisha: had gone wrong.
Abhinandan: I'm not saying [01:40:00] that she was, I'm just saying that both can't be true. Both can't be true that it had been decided that she will be PM.
She
Raman: did not steer, uh, Congress to victory. That's all we are trying to say. Congress won. She, I mean, she was not the, she was not so instrumental. She was not so instrumental. She wasn't the face. It wasn't an
Abhinandan: expected victory. What I'm saying is that all I'm saying, and after that,
Raman: after that, yes, Sonia's ascendancy happened after that.
10
Abhinandan: years. In
Raman: 10
Abhinandan: years, she became the Supreme Leader. 2004 to 2014, she became a star. She was not a star before that.
Manisha: Yeah, I guess it's not comparable today, but I do think that leadership was, our basic point of argument was the cohesive force of opposition. Which Sonia provided versus what Rahul. No, no, no.
Abhinandan: My basic thing was, it started off from, you take the media away, Modi is also no one. Like you said, now that there is no alternative. I said there is no alternative narrative is something that the BJP has [01:41:00] created. It is not a robust argument. I see to take the media away, Modi will not have this image for one year.
He will be laughed at as much as Rahul is. And the example I gave was that Sonia was not, I'm not talking about her being instrumental. The two things you can be instrumental in taking something to success because you have created such a good structure of the organization. One is that you're the superstar who wins the election.
Arvind doesn't run the party. So other people are instrumental in the structure, but he's the superstar. Sonia was never the superstar who would get you votes is what I'm saying. The media creates Modi's image. That is. Yes.
Manisha: Okay. Somraj says, I think it's foolish from Manisha who blames Rahul Gandhi for everything wrong with the opposition.
In terms of moral conscience, he's the only one left. Manisha lives in the media world having privileges where they still believe he's Pappu, a name carefully caricatured by the likes of Arnab and gang. It's sad that people need leaders who just spew shit [01:42:00] regardless of the venom it carries with it. It was pathetic, just like the Bengal election coverage in 2021.
I
Raman: think Manisha thinks that he's too good
Manisha: In connection with Manisha's view of the opposition, politicians displaying eloquence and intellect and opposition leaders of any significance have their images tarnished, targeted relentlessly. Rahul is a burb re endorsing Pappu. Tharoor is hoity toity. Mahua is Louis Vuitton totting bong.
Didi of Muslims. Regional parties cannot get relief funds or even pass bills. Total disregard for democratic principles and morality of the bullies that run India while, while ruining every institution has made it impossible for any opposition leader to be heard. And even when leaders do emerge, they have to sell their Hinduness by chanting hymns and denouncing surnames.
If my bigoted, mandir loving, gullible, idiotic nation does surprise us in 2024, it'll not be due to voiceless, powerless, moneyless opposition, but owing to the hubris of 56 inch man. Firstly, I don't [01:43:00] think there's anything morally conscious, whatever, about losing and not winning. learning from your mistakes.
Uh, Rahul Gandhi doesn't want to be the president, but we all know that no decision in the party happens without him. He's effectively in a position where you can have, you know, defeat after defeat, lose elections that are there for the winning, but never take any, you know, credit blame for it. So I don't see how that's morally superior.
I mean, it's just
Abhinandan: unprofessional. I don't think that is the context. They're saying that the moral superiority is not on, on that. I think it is because he takes uncompromising stance. And I have heard this articulate from a lot of people, including Lalu. The only other person I've heard is that against the RSS on, on issue of secularism, which for many people is the foundation of everything.
It is more important in the hierarchy of things. On these two things, the only people who have continued to attack Modi and Shah are Rahul and, [01:44:00] uh, Lalu Yadav. I'm not a fan of either, but I think it's true. On that, he has been uncompromising and even people who like the Congress, uh, even from people within, acknowledge many people within the Congress was scared to attack Modi because they thought hun par E.
D. a jaggi, you know, cause everybody has killed. The only person who did not give a shit, Rahul, he went and Lalo also. Yes. He went at Mohi. Lalu went Atmo, even after Arrested, I think was
Manisha: the superior in terms of his, so, so that is the attack of the RS and politics. That is the conscience that they're
Abhinandan: talking about.
I mean, but on the thing about, um, you know, him being criticized, I do think he's criticized, but most, but again, it is because of the. culture or that is created. Like I said last time, the kind of bloopers Mr. Modi has done, he would be as much of a laughingstock as anybody else. In fact, more.
Sting: It is
Abhinandan: just that no one has the guts.
Like for example, I mean, [01:45:00] many people may not want to believe her. Maybe we should investigate. Supriya Srinath, that's how you pronounce her name, right? When she showed that ad. That is being, uh, that they said every newspaper refused to carry, which is about the corruption, the quid pro quo of Modi. These guys are taking out all sorts of ads against, uh, the opposition, but the newspapers are not willing to take out an ad against it.
People do not want to share. If I make a montage of Modi's bloopers and you put it in a group, see how many forward it. Not because they don't agree with it, they're scared to.
Manisha: Also, one thing on this Pappu thing, uh, when you do. meet people apart from the real BJP bugs that you meet at rallies and like staunch Modi supporters.
Even an average voter that may not be, I'm talking about like centrist voters who don't, who 10 years ago voted for Congress. They have many other criticisms of the Congress, but I think Pappu is a specifically very [01:46:00] committed BJP voter that will get into it. The average view is that we don't know what he stands for, that he's not a seasoned politician.
And I think there is some merit to that considering his political career or the last or utterances or political positioning from, you know, last three years. I don't think that's, I think what I
Abhinandan: think is that he's just not a full time politician. That is the most. Robust and valid criticism, but we have many letters left.
We will leave those for next time because we are out of time. So hold your emails for a week and after that, let them through because we have about five or six, so unless you have something very specific to contribute to the discussion today, you know, just hold your mail for a week so that we can finish these because we have some very good articulate mails left.
Uh, but we have almost touching two hours and I still have to take the recommendations. So, let us wind up this hafta with another appeal, please pay to keep news free, contribute, uh, your recommendations. Manisha, let me start with you.
Manisha: So, a [01:47:00] piece in Financial Times by John Reed and Andy Lin, uh, in charts, Narendra Modi's welfare freebies offer an election boost.
I think it's a very good piece, uh, because, um, Azam Khan has been in news. Because Mukhtar Ansari has been news, has been in news and there's been a lot of debate about why he was eulogized. There's an excellent profile by Patrick French on him, uh, what he was like as a leader, his popularity, what he stood for.
I think that should really be read, especially today because it's so, it's so polarized. Uh, and one more thing, you go, I'll give you, there's one more recommendation.
Raman: So I have two recommendations. One is our, uh, you know, the turncoats is the most unique feature of this, uh, election. And, uh, there's so many of them.
And, uh, despite the anti defection law, and, uh, we, we don't know, uh, whether we should, You know, they are [01:48:00] morally corrupt or they are ethically corrupt. We don't know, have any idea about them. So we just leave it to the people. What we are going to do, we are going to come out with a series and call out these turncoats.
Like in the phase one, there are 18 turncoats contesting the election. So we have given four today and every day we are going to come. That's interesting. And then phase two, phase three. So this is how we are going to, uh, you know, work on this course, everything in a very briefly. I mean, our three 50 words, 400 words on each.
And the second is, uh, my recommendation for a movie which was nominated for Oscars and I think had won the best supporting actress award also, The Holdovers, a beautiful movie. It is on the Prime Video. This is about, uh, you know, a convent school where some students who could not go to school. their home, their house, so they had to stay back in the [01:49:00] hostel.
So there's a teacher, a very strict teacher. So it's a story between, relationship between that student and the teacher. Uh, beautiful, uh, movie.
Manisha: The other piece I wanted to recommend was because of this whole Rahul thing. There's a piece in the Indian Express by Kapil Komireddy. Dear Rahul Gandhi, a big share of the blame of India's authoritarian slide will have to be shouldered by you.
I think this is broadly what I was trying to articulate. So read it. And we can discuss this maybe again, but I think while we discuss everything that's wrong with the Modi government, we need to also think about whether we have the opposition we deserve right now and what sort of opposition is the principal national opposition party throwing at us and tough times I think require like more gumption and I'm not sure if Rahul is providing us that right now, especially in the current times.
Abhinandan: So I have, uh, two recommendations. Both are, uh, not both. One is a pat on the back to us. It is a column by R. [01:50:00] Rajagopal in the Telegraph online, Keyboard Gorillas, talks about how the legacy media has failed India and how they refuse small outfits such as the News Minute scroll. and News Laundry, who are the real journalists keeping things as, you know, as, as accurate as possible.
So please read that and then forward, forward to as many people as possible and also subscribe while you're at it. And the second is, uh, you know, lots of stories on electoral bonds, including by the team sitting here. Not me them. Uh, the Hindu today has a piece 33 loss making firms donated electoral bonds worth 582 crores.
A 75 percent went to BJP and then analysis of the 45 companies that donated electoral bonds. Now they haven't been able to get to right at the end of the source, but it is I mean, I'm sure there are about seven layers. They've reached layer two, which is a, [01:51:00] you know, reports like this take time, energy, effort.
So I appreciate and value such reports, which is I'm recommending it. And on that note, I would like to thank our sound recordist, Anil Kumar, our producer, Aryan, and our panelists, Raman and Manisha. And I would like to thank you in advance. If you are contributing to the NELSENA project, because expenses for the next two months are going to be immense, we have people traveling to how many states, sir?
Don't
Raman: cry. Don't laugh. I feel like crying. Even in northeast. We are going to northeast. Are you serious? Okay, but you should I guess you can't.
Abhinandan: Okay. Let's go. Whatever is there is there. Help us pay the bills, contribute, click on the subscribe button. Otherwise, this
Song of the week: is what will happen to us.[01:52:00]
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Sting: And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad free and subscriber funded.
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