This week’s episode of Fortune‘s Leadership Next podcast features three conversations from the Fortune Most Powerful Women Summit, held in Laguna Niguel, Calif., earlier this month. First up, we hear from Senator Laphonza Butler, who joined Fortune's Emma Hinchliffe onstage just one week after she was sworn in as a California senator, filling the seat vacated by Dianne Feinstein, who passed away in September. Senator Butler discussed being an example of economic empowerment for women and girls, and the power of coalition-building across parties—and the business sector—to affect real change.
In the second conversation of the episode, Michal Lev-Ram sits down with No. 35 on the 2023 Most Powerful Women list, Ariel Investments co-CEO Mellody Hobson, who is also a chairwoman on the board of directors of Starbucks. Hobson shares how she initially became interested in strategic decision-making, and how to keep DEI a priority in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision on affirmative action.
Finally, we hear excerpts from Lev-Ram's conversation with No. 53 on the 2023 MPW List, Netflix chief content officer Bela Bajaria. Bajaria discusses how the company chooses which content to produce and acquire, plus the importance of balancing the use of algorithms versus trusting her gut in that process.
Co-hosts Alan Murray and Michal Lev-Ram chat and reflect on the conversations throughout the episode.
Listen to the episode or read the full transcript below.
Transcript:
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Alan Murray: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte, who, like me, are exploring the changing rules of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.
Senator Laphonza Butler: My life has always been an example for women and girls and their economic empowerment. And I want to continue that, whether as a labor leader fighting for higher wages and helping to raise the minimum wage and get sick days and paid time off for caregivers in this state who didn't have it as of 2016, or of doing the work of Emily's List, or my time at Airbnb. I feel like I have had the opportunity to serve the economic empowerment of women, the political power of women, and this is another opportunity for me to do that. And to do it within the spirit of Senator Feinstein.
Murray: Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. I’m Alan Murray.
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Michal Lev-Ram: And I'm Michal Lev-Ram. You just heard the newly appointed junior senator of California Laphonza Butler speaking to Fortune’s Emma Hinchcliffe at the 2023 Most Powerful Women Summit. The summit took place October 10 through 12 in the senator’s home state of California, and my home state. For those of you who may not know, Butler was appointed by California Governor Gavin Newsom to fill the seat vacated by Dianne Feinstein, who passed away in September. Senator Butler was just one of the many, many guests that we had at this year's Most Powerful Women Summit. And we're going to hear from her in a moment. But Alan, you were also at MPW this year, which was a treat. What was the experience like for you?
Murray: It is always so much fun. It's great to be the guy in the room. And I thought Senator Butler was very compelling. I'm not sure I aligned completely with her politics, but it was quite a coup to have her, what, three days into the job? And her personal story was really moving. So I thought that was great. Beth Ford, the CEO of Land O’ Lakes; Laura Alber, the CEO of Williams Sonoma; Kathryn McLay, the CEO of Walmart International, is really an impressive lineup.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we also had Karen Lynch from CVS, we had interestingly the head of the DEA who talked about the Fentanyl crisis. So we covered a lot of ground at the summit. And in today's episode of Leadership Next, we are going to feature three conversations with women who really embody many of the MPW values of you know, leadership tenacity, vision, creativity. And we're going to hear excerpts from my onstage conversations with Mellody Hobson, the co-CEO of Ariel Investments, and chairwoman of the board of Starbucks, and Bela Bajaria, the chief content officer at Netflix. Mellody and Bela, by the way, are Nos. 35 and 53 on the 2023 MPW list, respectively.
Murray: Both great conversations, by the way, but let's start off by going back to Senator Butler for a moment. Emma asked her what she feels she can bring to the Senate during what is clearly a very tumultuous time for the country, the world, and for politics. And, her response felt very much in line with the discussions we've had here on Leadership Next, about how business interacts with politics and society.
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Butler: I think that both the story of California and my experience in it, is an offering that I can bring to leadership in this moment, the story of California being one of such great innovation, and hope. And we understand very much the economic inequality that exists in our state. We have some incredible innovations in policy regarding the environment, electric vehicles, water, transportation, fascinating pathways to the future. And as the symbol of hope and spaces of policy and people and in connection, what California has taught me and my work in it has been about, how do you, you know, take what is one of the greatest melting pots in the world and find common ground and build coalitions? And I think what young people and everybody in between [inaudible] would have us believe is that you know, things are that the government is broken. That nobody is talking to each other. The only way that we were able to pass a $15 minimum wage in California was through coalition. It was not just the labor movement, but it was small businesses. It was not just small businesses, but it was nonprofits. And everybody played a role in figuring out what might work for California. And so having had the experiences of working to build those coalitions to make significant change in one of the most dynamic places and economies in the country. And dare I say in the world is an, I think, an asset that I can bring in and we'll bring to my service in the U.S. senate.
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Lev-Ram: Well, I love the spirit of coalition building. But we all know that that's easier said than done. But this is a great framing for the next conversation we're featuring. And it's with a woman who has a long time coming for Leadership Next, the co-CEO of Ariel Investments and the chairwoman of the board of Starbucks, Mellody Hobson. And like Senator Butler, she's got a lot of experience making decisions with the interest of multiple stakeholders in mind. So I had a chance to talk with Mellody on stage about her leadership lessons are thoughts on how companies can stay faithful to their DE and I efforts in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision on affirmative action.
Murray: Yeah, and you did it well, Michal. And getting a little meta here. You also ask her about the Leadership Next interview that you and I did with Laxman Narasimhan, the new CEO of Starbucks that aired just a few weeks ago. In that interview Laxman credits Mellody, and also Howard Schultz, his predecessor, with coming up with the idea of for his very unusual six-month immersion as a barista at the company. If you haven't had a chance to listen to that episode, you should go—everyone should go back and do it. It was fascinating.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, and I didn't bring up the oleato with Mellody. But it was definitely fun to chat with her. So soon after we spoke with Laxman, and speaking to Mellody, honestly at any time is just a crash course in leadership. She literally taught a masterclass on strategic decision making. So is definitely speaking with an expert voice here. Without further ado, here is my conversation with No. 35 on the 2023 MPW list, Mellody Hobson.
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Lev-Ram: So, you literally taught the master class on strategic decision-making, as we heard, and I wonder if you could start out by just sharing with us, where do you feel like your lessons in strategic decision-making throughout your career? Where did most of that come from? Was it from the boardroom, from your childhood from somewhere in between?
Mellody Hobson: So, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I always love coming to this conference. And I used to dream of being here when I was really young, and reading Fortunes. So it's very exciting to sit on the stage, and to be on the list and just meet and be with so many amazing women. My strategic, my points of view around strategy came through. Growing up, my mother had really practical advice for me all the time. From my life experience, generally the hardest things and the worst things taught me the most about strategy when things weren't going well. And then I've had the opportunity to work with some iconic leaders, like Howard Schultz, Jamie Dimon, Jeffrey Katzenberg, being in a room with David Geffen. People who…John Roger, be married to an icon like George Lucas. And so those Titans all have been great. Advisors, and I try to eat up and soak up wisdom.
Lev-Ram: Best lesson from your mother, though, was what?
Hobson: Well, there I was telling some of my mother stories in the greenroom, which were hilarious. But I think in work her number-one lesson was, make myself indispensable. She always said, make it so you couldn't lose your job, that everyone would want to work with you. And I used to joke with John Rogers when I first started at Ariel I want one of me, because I really did make myself indispensable.
Lev-Ram: So, one of the things you've talked about in the past, and in the masterclass as well as kind of the the art of having tough, candid conversations. And I wonder if you could just give for us like some of your biggest lessons over the years when it comes to that something everybody in this room has to deal with, and so many of us have a hard time doing.
Hobson: Dambisa Moyo was the person who crystallized this for me, she's one of my best friends, we’re doppelgangers. She grew up in Africa. I grew up in America. And she always used to say to me in the very early years, feedback is a gift. It is not a right. And that was something that I realized was really important. I think people think we have a right to feedback when we don't. And so she's like, wherever you can get it, however you can get it, you should be excited about it. We have a coach inside of Ariel, who always used to tell us that you would ask permission to get feedback. Because he said everyone doesn't want it. So when we were in a situation, we would say, and still at Ariel, do you want feedback? And don't say yes, if you don't want it. And so getting feedback in that situation, and then lastly, don't qualify feedback by who gives it to you, I think what typically happens is we say, I don't really like that person, so therefore, I'm going to discount everything that they say, when sometimes someone you least like admire, maybe think has the values that you had, there is a kernel in there that could be helpful to you. And so being accepting of feedback from anyone at anytime, anywhere, is the goal that I've always had. And then I can tell you, you know, being willing to accept it.
Lev-Ram: And so Alan Murray, our CEO, and I recently interviewed the newish CEO of Starbucks, for our podcast Leadership Next. And it was fascinating hearing him talk about his sort of immersion into Starbucks, not just doing the, you know, typical listening tour, but actually taking months getting to be a certified barista, working as a barista across the world. And this is something that you and Howard Schultz put together.
Hobson: Howard really thought of it. So I want to give him credit, because that's really the person Howard said, let's give him six months to get totally immersed. And during that time, he said, I'll stay longer, because he was supposed to leave earlier than he did. I'll give him that time where no one is reporting to him. He doesn't have to make any really hard calls. And you can spend the time just learning the business from the ground level up. And then we slowly layered on reporting responsibilities, but he was unencumbered for a long time to really move around the world and be behind the counter. And in being behind the counter, it's the way you really learn the business.
Lev-Ram: You gotta spell everybody's names. It's not easy.
Hobson: If only it were just that!
Lev-Ram: Yes, I'm sure.
Hobson: Being a barista is hard.
Lev-Ram: I have zero doubt. But one of the interesting things to me was that he mentioned, as we were asking him about this process that in kind of the Western mentality, it's like, oh, my gosh, how did you take so long to train for this to do this, you know, immersion? And the Eastern mentality is, why was it so short? Just six months? So can you talk about just your role and in shaping that helping to shape that and why, as Chair of the Board of Starbucks, you decided that this was really worth his time.
Hobson: The culture of our company is so important to our success. And understanding that culture is truly critical to understanding the customer, the partners who work inside the company, and what makes us different. And you know, when you think about it, on the one level, we sell a commodity. On the other level, we sell an experience that is so ingrained in cultures, not only here in America, but around the world. And it's so important to people. And they choose this third place, because it makes them feel something like they belong or special or value, noticed. It's the name on the cup, all of those things, they set us apart from a traditional, in my mind, competitor, no disrespect. And I think making sure that someone could really assimilate inside of that culture was very important. When you think about many careers, you know, there were jobs where you were an apprentice for a long time. At Ariel, we talk about our analysts, being apprentices, their apprentice, they apprentice for a very long time, where they're just learning the craft. And that's what Laxman had the opportunity to do. Again, it was Howard's idea. And as a board, we were fully fully behind that idea, based upon what we thought ultimately would be important to his success, and therefore the success of the company.
Lev-Ram: But I want to pivot a little bit in the meantime, we saw so many diversity initiatives, after the murder of George Floyd in particular, and so many commitments and statements put out and, and now we're seeing at least in some companies, deep prioritization of those commitments of those initiatives. And so, obviously, this is near and dear to your heart and to Ariel and the whole mission from the get go. But what's your advice to other companies on how to keep your eye on the ball, how to keep it a priority and why what's the argument?
Hobson: The argument is very simple. So my perspective around diversity and diversity initiatives, inclusion, belonging is that if you want to be a world class, 21st century company, if you want to understand your potential customer, if you want to understand the people who work in your company, you need diverse perspectives, diverse ideas, diverse backgrounds, all to come together for better outcomes. If you don't want that, then stay monolithic. And over time, you will disappear. And I think that, you know, people are trying to make this about the right thing to do. This is good corporate governance. This is about being a fiduciary to all the stakeholders that are important to a company. And unfortunately, the pullback after the horrific murder of George Floyd that shined a light on an issue that anyone who was black or brown already knew about, there was no revelation for us is that the pullback has certainly been drawn been directly related to the Supreme Court decision with Harvard, in this sense that they're coming for us if we have diversity on our agenda. I say don't give into that. I think companies have to stand firm, because this is ultimately in the best interest of the company, the shareholder, and our society.
Lev-Ram: Are you concerned about the legal landscape? You've got Project Black, the fund that you started. Does that concern you? How are you navigating?
Hobson:No, I'm not concerned at all. We've looked at all of the legal possibilities. And we feel very, very strong. And, and confident in our point of view about what we're doing to grow, and scale minority black businesses, minority businesses, black and brown in the United States. So this is a good business decision. And that's ultimately, you know, what matters over time.
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Murray: That was great, Michal, really good conversation, anything that particularly stuck with you.
Lev-Ram: You know, one of the things she said over the course of the interview that I was really struck by are her words about feedback being a gift. I had never thought of it that way. And I definitely walked away just thinking a lot about that in particular.
Murray: Yeah, yeah, really compelling.
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Murray: Jason Girzadas, CEO of Deloitte US, is the sponsor of this podcast and joins me today. Welcome, Jason.
Jason Girzadas: Thank you, Alan. It's great to be here.
Murray: Jason, our ideas about work, where we work, when we work, how we work, all of those have continued to evolve since the pandemic, is that a problem for business? Or is it an opportunity for business?
Jason Girzadas: That's a massive opportunity. Although I think the answer is less clear. It is a profound set of challenges, to be sure. But in the end, it's an opportunity to create a workplace, particularly in the face of more long term systemic talent workforce constraints and limitations that brings out the best of a workforce. So people can be their genuine self at work and can have heightened levels of productivity and feel supported and all that they do. But I don't think the models are clear. And we're seeing lots of experimentation. Whether that's around hybrid and what does it mean to actually co-locate and what degree of colocation matters, it's also a function of how does technology get embedded into the workplace such that employees and workforces feel supported and enabled and also the cultural elements related to diversity, equity, inclusion and feeling supported to be your genuine self at work. It's the combination, Alan, of all those factors that companies will innovate around and find novel ways to bring together that will be highly desirous of leading talent. And we'll be a differentiator in terms of businesses using their workplace and their work processes to win in new and different ways.
Murray: Jason, thanks for your perspective. And thanks for sponsoring Leadership Next.
Girzadas: Thank you.
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Murray: Michal, we also got into entertainment at the most powerful Women's Summit. This is the year of Barbie. Everybody’s seen it. I've seen it. I think you've seen it.
Lev-Ram: I've seen it three times.
Murray: Oh, my goodness. And we talked about the future of streaming. And we talked about Netflix.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, definitely the year of Barbie and a big year in you know, not all good ways. For the entertainment industry. There were a lot of challenges as we know. We saw the streaming industry and traditional Hollywood industry, dealing with the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes with writers and actors being particularly concerned about streaming residuals and how the big streamers are going to use A.I. The WGA signed a contract earlier this month actually right before MPW, but the SAG strike is ongoing and hand in hand with a strike story is how sustainable streaming is as a business because we've definitely seen challenges.
Murray: Yeah, Michal. This is one of many areas of business that were just up-ended in huge ways by the pandemic, and the pandemic aftermath. I mean, streaming got a big boost when we were all stuck in our homes and had nothing else to do. And then when we came out, it got hit hard. Netflix reported losing a million subscribers in 2022. And their stock price has been jumping up and down like a cardiogram. But, despite this, Netflix is still an amazing powerhouse. I mean, they have what almost 240 million subscribers in 190 countries, and it's certainly in spite of the problems, an amazing business story.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of challenges. And by the way, they are cracking down on password sharing. So be aware. I mean, look, that's an area of growth for them cracking down on Password sharing, we're already seeing it being, you know, getting reflected in their numbers. And obviously, they need to find growth elsewhere. That's not a sustainable strategy. But, you know, their their approach to content and to global content is just fascinating, and has been fascinating to watch over the years. They've been very, very innovative on that front. And Bela Bajaria Netflix's Chief Content Officer for almost a year, but who's been there for the last six years, as Head of Global TV, she has really been tasked with that strategy and has brought in some amazing content, you know, both original and licensed. And she spends her time thinking about what Netflix originals are going to get made, how they fit into the company's overall global strategy where they're going to be attractive to different geographies. We talked about that global strategy in this conversation, as well as how she balances using tech and using her gut to make these content decisions.
Murray: Here's Michal’s conversation with No. 53 on the 2023 MPW list, Bela Bajaria.
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Lev-Ram: Thanks for being with us. I know you are literally all over the world. So we appreciate you making a stop here. Real quick, I want to ask you, your role has changed over the years, obviously, the company has evolved significantly, as well as the industry like we mentioned. But tell us just what does it mean to be chief content officer at Netflix today?
Bela Bajaria: Good morning, everybody. It's, you know what it means, it means it's a really fun job. I, you know, I get to work with the best creators and filmmakers around the world, many different languages, many different countries and bring these stories to a global audience. So it's, you know, incredibly rewarding, especially for somebody like me, who was an Indian immigrant in the country, never saw myself on screen. And it's very powerful thing to see yourself. And so to be part of a company that doesn't just export Hollywood content, but really tells the stories from around the world, and have discovery around the world in the we do is, you know, it's such a fun job. I mean, I get to work with Chloe Domont and David Fincher and David Beckham recently, and lots of amazing, you know, filmmakers around the world. So it's, you know, it's a great job.
Lev-Ram: Can't forget Posh.
Bajaria: Posh, yes. Becks and Posh.
Lev-Ram: So we're going to talk a little bit more about the global scale, Netflix streams in more than 190 countries, about two thirds of your more than 230 million subscriptions are now coming from outside of the U.S. and Canada. So I'm curious to hear over the last few years in particular, in your career, what have you learned about how to approach the strategy for approaching content on such a global scale?
Bajaria: So I'd say like looking at, you know, it's always about like, what do audiences love? What do they want to watch? Right? What we do is, we are an entertainment company, right? We only make movies in series. And it's really understanding that people have lots of different tastes and lots of different moods, even in your own family. And you know, depending on what you're in the mood for, right? That there's a wide breadth of choices. If you know earlier in the year, if I look at something like you know, in the U.S., there was Night Agent, an action show. Beef, a really beautiful award winning show really about human connection in so many ways. And Love is Blind, a very popular dating, reality show, all of those things were number one, two, and three in the U.S. And they kept flip flopping, which really shows you kind of the breadth of you know, different tastes. And when we look at, you know, what are those great titles and how do we really do that? It always starts with the Creator. It always starts with the filmmaker. And it starts with being very specific and authentic to that voice and whatever language that is. And that thing is universal, whether it's in Mumbai or Madrid or Los Angeles, right? There's a very culturally specific thick thing of voice, and it's authentic. And we really support that vision. We do that on this scale by doing, you know, we have 27 local country offices with local people in those offices who are from the creative ecosystem, who speak the language or from the culture who work in that community. And that's really kind of how we do it, you know, in that way, and it's always like, in the end of the day, audiences do have different tastes, we know that our members watch, on average, six different genres a month. And so people do have a wide range of tastes. And so it's really been about creator-first. And I'd say the other thing is, I think people look at us and think we make global shows, we don't make global shows, we make local specific, authentic shows and films, and then we launch it to a global audience. Because I also think if you try to make a show for everyone, and you make a show for no one. And that's really kind of how we have been, you know, successful at storytelling first, and really being very authentic to what that voice is, in whatever country that comes from.
Lev-Ram: I want to ask you about the Hollywood strikes. These have taken center stage, of course, over the last few months, we just saw WGA members approve a contract agreement after nearly five months. And this is really being touted by union leaders and members, in large part as a success. And both when it comes to gains in payment, giving writers more control and transparency over the use of generative A.I. and scripts. Do you see this as a win for the studios and for Netflix?
Bajaria: So first, I'm going to say congratulations to the WGA, who did ratify the agreement yesterday. And in that agreement, there was you know, really meaningful gains and protections for writers. And I'd say for, you know, all of us to get writers back to work. And, you know, that really is the goal of, you know, all of the members of the AMPTP. And really, as a community, right, it was like to get everybody back to work. And so now, you know, obviously with SAG, which is still in the middle of negotiations, so I can't really, really talk about that a lot. But the focus now is to really reach you know, agreement with SAG . And now we have two agreements, either the 3 with the Guild, and to really get you know, everybody back to work making amazing series and films that all of you should watch. And will love.
Lev-Ram: Just sticking with technology here for a bit because brought up Gen A.I. You've said in the past that algorithms don't dictate your content decisions. And I know you've already talked about it a little bit. But Netflix has always, you know, you originated in Silicon Valley, and there was this tech platform, even in the DVD days, right? You've always had such amazing technology at your fingertips. So how do you balance that the tech and the science piece, and the art and the intuition? You yourself and as a company?
Bajaria: So first, I'd say it's really important to remember, we're an entertainment company, we don't do anything else except make movies and series, right. That's what we do, and just the core of what we do. And so for me, and I've been in an entertainment executive for 27 years, something like that, a long time. And it's always about the creativity, right? It's always about working with writers and directors, having that relationship, having that trust, building a relationship, and really supporting that vision. And whether that's when I was at CBS, or ran Universal Television or Netflix, the core of it is always judgment, gut intuition, creativity, there is not an algorithm in the world to tell you the next thing that's going to actually connect and resonate with people. And that's not what we do. It really is a always a creative business. And we are an entertainment company. And I think it's amazing that we with great storytelling coupled with, you know, really amazing quality subtitles and dubbing and with easy access and discovery, that sort of the combination of those things is really an amazing thing. But we are an entertainment company. And for me if you talk about discovery and access. What's been incredible is you know, the experience when you come on Netflix is that you can discover Lupin from France or La Casa de Papel from Spain. And right you can watch you know, the David Beckham and you know, docseries and there's just such a wide breadth of things and that sort of the experience and Netflix of coupling like great storytelling with amazing discovery is you know, what has been really successful and why our members love that they can they get to discover, you know, Dear Child, you know, a month ago from Germany that people have, you know, loved all over the world.
Lev-Ram: I seem to get stuck with a lot of dino, trucks and Pokeman recommendations because my five year old boy uses my Netflix profile, but—
Bajaria: I was gonna say, do you and just use your own profiles?
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Murray: Michal, did you walk away from that conversation with a better understanding of where Netflix is headed?
Lev-Ram: Um, you know, I think that the message was, content is king. And we've been hearing that for a while. I mean, like you said, Bela definitely sees Netflix, and I think Netflix is seeing itself as an entertainment company. There's tech behind the scenes, but it's entertainment lead. And, Alan, before we close, from your point of view, anything from this year's MPW conference that you want to highlight that we haven't already?
Murray: Well, we haven't talked about Katherine McLay, the CEO of Walmart International, I thought she was super impressive. I gotta tell you, I'm more and more impressed with that company every day. And what she shows is they have a very deep leadership bench, she was very thoughtful on what leadership in these tumultuous times needs to look like. And you know, she said at one point, Michal, she said, Someone once told her, you need to behave like this, because that's how a CEO behaves. And she said, I thought to myself, I'm not going to be a very good CEO that because I'm not doing that. I'm gonna be me about that was a great moment at the conference.
Lev-Ram: Absolutely. And, you know, sticking with the the global theme that you brought up here, I do think we had so many compelling speakers who brought global perspectives. You know, we brought in Efrat Duvdivani from the Paris Center for Peace and Innovation very last minute to address the the war in Israel and Gaza. You know, the head of the DEA who I mentioned earlier, gave a global perspective as well, because the Fentanyl crisis is not just a U.S.-focused problem. So I thought that added a lot to the program.
Murray: Yeah, there was a sense of there was kind of a bit of a cloud over the whole program because of what was happening in Israel at the time. I think everybody felt it, you could feel it in the conversations. But it also sort of reemphasized the bigger point, which is business leadership has gotten very, very complicated. Geopolitics and climate and you know, supply chain and all these pandemic and return to work. All these things have sort of stacked up making the job more difficult than I can remember them ever having been and that was an important part of the conversations that took place.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, absolutely. And just tying it back to coalition building, which is what we started with. It was really great seeing and hearing from all of the women we had in the room and on stage. And just the collaboration that was taking place and the leadership lessons and takeaways, especially in light of everything happening in the world right now. So we're looking forward to bringing you more stories about the women on this year's MPW list, both on Leadership Next right here and across fortune, so keep an eye out.
Murray: See you next week on a new episode of Leadership Next.
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