It was a revelation that could have had explosive ramifications.
US news outlet ABC News reported that an “excited” Donald Trump allegedly discussed top-secret details of US nuclear submarines with the Australian billionaire Anthony Pratt, who later allegedly shared the information with at least 45 people, including “three former Australian prime ministers”.
The details included “the supposed exact number of nuclear warheads [US submarines] routinely carry, and exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian submarine without being detected”, according to the ABC News report.
But now, almost all of Australia’s living former prime ministers have denied receiving top-secret information.
John Howard, Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard, Kevin Rudd and Paul Keating have all now ruled themselves out as having such a conversation with Pratt.
Tony Abbott did not definitely rule it out, but told Guardian Australia: “I don’t have any recollection of it.”
Similarly, a spokesperson for Scott Morrison said: “Mr Morrison spoke to Mr Pratt on numerous occasions over the years and does not recall any conversation where Mr Pratt relayed what could be considered sensitive information.”
Guardian Australia is not suggesting the former prime ministers have done anything wrong – Trump has flatly denied the original story.
Citing sources with knowledge of Pratt’s account to investigators for the special counsel Jack Smith, ABC News last week reported that Trump spoke to the Australian businessman at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida in April 2021.
ABC News reported that Pratt allegedly brought up the American submarine fleet, which the two had discussed before.
“According to Pratt’s account, as described by the sources, Pratt told Trump he believed Australia should start buying its submarines from the United States, to which an excited Trump – ‘leaning’ toward Pratt as if to be discreet – then told Pratt two pieces of information about US submarines: the supposed exact number of nuclear warheads they routinely carry, and exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian submarine without being detected.”
Pratt, the report alleged, went on to share the information with at least 45 people, including his own employees, journalists, foreign and Australian officials “and three former Australian prime ministers”.
It is not clear if what Trump told Pratt was accurate, ABC said. Nevertheless, investigators reportedly asked him to stop repeating what he heard.
Trump wrote on his social media platform, Truth Social, late last week that the ABC story was “false and ridiculous … other than the fact that I will often state that we make the best submarines and military equipment anywhere in the world – a pretty well known fact!”
A spokesperson for Keating told Guardian Australia that “in quite a number of discussions he has had with Anthony Pratt, over a range of matters, Mr Pratt had never mentioned submarines or nuclear submarine secrets or anything vaguely near it”.
Gillard’s office confirmed that she “has not received any information from Anthony Pratt about US nuclear submarine capabilities”.
Turnbull said Pratt did not speak to him, although he added: “Trump did ask me in early 2017 why we were buying French rather than US subs.”
Similarly, Howard’s office said he did not have such a conversation with Pratt.
Rudd, who is now the Australian ambassador to the US, said: “I have not spoken to Anthony Pratt about any conversations he may have had with former US President Donald J Trump at Mar-a-Lago in April 2021.”
Morrison was the prime minister at the time of Trump’s alleged disclosure, but negotiated the Aukus nuclear-powered submarine plan with the Biden administration.
Pratt was asked for a response via his company, Visy Industries.
The prime minister, Anthony Albanese, when asked on Saturday whether Pratt’s comments had reached him, said: “I don’t comment on the security arrangements of another country – that is a matter for the United States.”
Albanese, who is due to travel to the White House in late October, told reporters Australia had “a very good relationship with our friends in the United States”.
But the Greens’ defence spokesperson, David Shoebridge, said the episode should prompt a broader rethink of Australia’s reliance on the US.
“Under the Morrison and Albanese governments, Australia has been tying itself closer and closer to the US,” Shoebridge said.
“With the very real prospect of a future President Trump or worse, we should be seriously considering how this impacts on our national interest.”
Simon Birmingham, who was a senior minister in the Morrison government when it negotiated Aukus with the Biden administration, said he and other members of Australia’s national security committee (NSC) were expected to keep operational details secret “for the rest of our lives”.
Birmingham told Sky News on Friday he could not “prejudge exactly what took place in these discussions” between Trump and Pratt, but observed that US nuclear submarine technologies were highly advanced.
“It’s also why I’m sure many in the United States will take very, very seriously the suggestion that these types of technologies and the capabilities associated with them could be subject to discussions outside of those confined spaces, such as, in our case, the Australian NSC,” Birmingham said.
Additional reporting by Sarah Basford Canales and Martin Pengelly
