Seb, 58, London
Occupation Doctor. Was a GP in London; now medical director of a company that looks after health on cruise ships
Voting record He’s Dutch so can’t vote in general elections. Has voted Lib Dem and Labour in local and mayoral elections
Amuse bouche Is improving his cooking skills by making one dish featured in the Guardian’s Feast every week
Raj, 50, London
Occupation Dentist. Raj has worked in the NHS all his career. He now has a limited NHS contract with most of his treatment options private
Voting record Labour years ago, but Conservative during his working career
Amuse bouche Has an advanced diving qualification and has dived in south-east Asia, the Red Sea and the Caribbean
For starters
Seb It was an eastern Mediterranean restaurant. Great food. I had fish and salad. I’d never had Lebanese wine before – it was really crisp. Raj was delightful: easy to talk to, warm, open.
Raj Seb is a lovely guy: very caring, conscientious, empathic. That doesn’t mean I’m not caring, but I sometimes feel almost embarrassed for wanting just rewards for what I do.
The big beef
Raj When Nye Bevan started the NHS 75 years ago, what a beautiful concept – free healthcare for all. There’s not a person in the world, left or right, who doesn’t agree with that. But, sadly, there are things that should be free – food, water, electricity – that we do have to pay for. To get decent healthcare, I don’t think the system is viable any more.
Seb The relationship between doctor and patient changes when there’s money involved. The balance shifts: the patient can set the tone. There may be a perverse incentive for a doctor to offer a treatment or investigation that is not necessary. In private medicine, there’s overdiagnosis, overprescription.
Raj The amount of tax I pay, and the budget the NHS has, that equates to about £2,300 per person. I would rather be given that money back. Not all of it, because some treatments – heart attack or a stroke, emergency medicine – should be free. Other than that, the service I’m getting is not good enough.
Seb Dental care is not a model to follow. You end up with people trying to do things themselves that can have disastrous outcomes, or they ignore problems. If someone with an infectious disease didn’t go to the doctor because they’d have to pay for it, they could walk around spreading the infection. It’s in the interest of public health that people get seen quickly and free of charge.
Raj I’ve worked in the NHS for almost 25 years, and recently I’ve realised I’m not remunerated for the quality I want to provide. Something like a root-canal treatment could take three or four hours over two visits. On the NHS, a patient pays £70.70 and an associate would get about £60, which would mean we were earning less than our hygienists and possibly less than our nurses.
Sharing plate
Seb If doctors or dentists decide to strike, there’s something seriously wrong and the government should take heed. We should be able to express dissatisfaction – that’s a fundamental right. When there’s a train strike there are no trains, but when doctors strike an emergency service carries on.
Raj We’re often made to feel guilty for wanting parity with professionals who have gone through the same number of years in education and qualification. I wouldn’t strike, personally; I would just leave the profession.
For afters
Seb Some countries with higher levels of taxation have a higher level of happiness, like Finland, Norway, Sweden. I think knowing you’ll be looked after when the chips are down, that as a society you’re looking after the poor and frail, that makes you happier.
Raj Most of their salaries, like in the Netherlands where Seb is from, are higher. I shouldn’t pay more tax because I’m not getting a good enough service for it. If you charge more taxes, people are just going to leave, and that is happening in a lot of fields.
Takeaway
Seb We all look at the world through different eyes. We can respect that and be civilised about it – it doesn’t have to be a shouting match. With something like the NHS, there is no right or wrong – something has to evolve. We had a great evening, I really enjoyed it.
Raj Even though we’re politically a bit different, there were many things we agreed on. It’s a pity governments can’t sit down and do that, but it’s not going to happen, because when you’re in opposition, you have to oppose. We ended up chatting for three hours.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
• Raj and Seb ate at Ceru Queensway, London W2
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