Nottingham Forest collapsed in dismal fashion to lose 4-0 at West Ham United in the Premier League on Saturday.
For plenty of Reds fans, the decision to replace Jonjo Shelvey with Andre Ayew proved pivotal with a glut of goals following in the final 20 minutes at the London Stadium.
We debated the decision on the latest Garibaldi Red podcast with Matt Davies, Greg Mitchell, Mikey Clarke and BBC Radio Nottingham's Colin Fray.
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Was the collapse down to the substitution or is that giving the players an excuse?
CF: "The starting point is that Jonjo Shelvey has to come off. We would all agree that if he doesn't have to come off then he doesn't get taken off.
"The question then is who comes on? Do you go like for like or do you go more expansive and try to win the game? I can see why he went for what he did. At the time of the change, Forest had had their best five minutes. It wasn't brilliant but I think the crowd was on the brink of turning.
"I think Steve Cooper and his coaching staff felt that this was the time. They probably felt they had got away with being 0-0 still but were starting to get into it and try to win the game 1-0.
"If Shelvey is on the pitch do those goals happen? Maybe not, but you had to take him off and out of the equation because he might have got injured for weeks or months if he stayed on.
"If you kept the same shape does it stop the goals? I've watched them back and I'm not convinced. In the first 70 minutes they were second best and still making horrible mistakes with Shelvey on the pitch. West Ham had hit the post twice already.
"I think if anything the goalkeeper change impacted Forest's concentration. Jarrod Bowen was a nightmare all afternoon. The first goal he had far too much room to cross. I'm not sure it was necessarily down to subs. If Forest kept the same shape I think they lose the game 1-0 or 2-0, not four, but they would have lost.
"The most alarming thing Steve Cooper said afterwards, which I agree with, was questioning a lack of desire in the team. More than anything I think a lack of desire and a willingness to accept defeat was more worrying on Saturday."
MD: "We lauded Cooper for his tactics against Man City and Leeds, when he put Neco Williams to left wing. He could have done with doing that to stop Bowen on Saturday but there's too many injuries to move him.
"Hindsight is the buzzword and with hindsight, Mangala was the change for me, but we're giving the players an excuse if we pin it totally on Cooper. I don't think the sub was right but there's bigger issues around the mentality and quality of defending."
GM: "I agree with Colin. There's a lack of options with injuries but is it giving players an excuse if we're talking about a lack of desire?
"I would like to see more of Surridge and I'm glad Lingard got on. I'm looking to next Sunday now. Away performances are horrendous but when they lose big they learn. I'm hoping they can do it again."
MC: "If you look at the away record, three goals scored is the worst record in all four divisions. On the sub, it's easy to pinpoint one thing. The one thing that baffled me was that we're struggling to get anything away from home. For me taking something from the game was the priority, even a scrappy draw.
"It didn't work but we're still in a good position in the league. If we beat Everton we're seven points ahead of them even though our away form is horrific."
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