What we heard today
Today Lisa Wilkinson finished giving evidence and new court documents revealed a five-hour conversation between Wilkinson, Brittany Higgins and others, which was part of the preparations for the Project interview.
Here’s what we heard this afternoon:
Wilkinson was asked by Bruce Lehrmann’s barrister to identify in Hansard where she thought Senator Linda Reynolds was “lying through her teeth”. After Wilkinson went on to talk about her belief that Reynolds misled parliament, Justice Lee intervened, asking her what information she had to make her think Reynolds was lying through her teeth. Wilkinson suggested it came from her interview or phone calls with Higgins.
Wilkinson was also questioned over whether Higgins’s fiance David Sharaz was a good friend. Lee asked whether she thought it was a good idea to use Sharaz as a conduit rather than deal with Higgins, to which Wilkinson responded that her preference was for Higgins to be the main contact.
To catch up on what we heard this morning, click here.
The trial will resume again on Monday.
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The court has adjourned for the day
The court will resume on Monday morning with evidence from the expert witnesses.
Initially set down to finish this week, the hearing has been extended another week, until Friday 22 December.
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Wilkinson questioned over whether Sharaz was a good friend
Before Wilkinson left the witness box Justice Lee asked her some questions about her relationship with Higgins’ fiance David Sharaz and whether she considered him a good friend.
He began by asking her about her understanding of the vulnerability of victims of sexual assault, saying “are [they] especially vulnerable?”
Lee: “Would you accept that you have to be especially careful to make sure people in the situation of vulnerability are not being manipulated?”
Wilkinson agreed.
Lee: “Speaking of your own view at the time, do you think it was a good idea to use someone like Mr Sharaz as a conduit for communications with Ms Higgins rather than deal with Ms Higgins directly to the extent that he was being used as a conduit?”
Wilkinson: “My preference was for Ms Higgins to be the main contact.”
Wilkinson agreed that after her interview with Higgins she left it up to her producer to keep in contact with Higgins.
Lee then went on to ask Wilkinson if she considered she was a good friend of Sharaz, because he signed his email to her with “much love David”.
Wilkinson said she had not noticed that salutation at the time but she thought it was “odd”.
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Court to spend afternoon watching raw footage of Wilkinson’s interview of Higgins
The court is going to spend the rest of the afternoon watching the raw camera tapes of Higgins’ two-hour on-camera interview with Wilkinson.
Justice Lee said he had a responsibility to watch and listen to everything that has been put into evidence.
“I do have better things to do than sit and listen to this in court,” Lee said.
But in the interests of “complete and total transparency as to the material in which I’m basing my decision … then I think that should be done in open court”.
Lee said he would consider adding all the relevant TV programs and audio to the online court file in the interests of open justice.
Wilkinson’s barrister, Sue Chrysanthou SC, said the material to add to the evidence file included two interviews Lehrmann had done with the Spotlight program, and one he had conducted with Sky News Australia.
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Wilkinson says she ‘can’t recall’ when she received information that made her think Reynolds was ‘lying through her teeth’
Wilkinson has returned to the witness box after lunch and has been asked by Lehrmann’s barrister to identify in Hansard where she thought Senator Linda Reynolds was “lying through her teeth”.
We heard before the break that Wilkinson sent a text to her producer before the program went to air which said: “[Senator Linda] Reynolds [was] lying through her teeth.”
Lehrmann’s barrister, Matthew Richardson SC: “Are you able to identify the passages which to your recollection you believe, accorded with Senator Reynolds lying through her teeth when you said that at 2.45pm?”
Wilkinson indicated that it was when Reynolds said that at the time of her initial meeting with Higgins she was “not aware of the details or the circumstances of the alleged incident in my office. Had I known, I would have conducted the meeting elsewhere.”
After Wilkinson went on to talk about her belief that Reynolds misled parliament, Justice Lee intervened.
Lee:
So what was the information that you had in your possession as of 2.46pm on 15 February 2021, which was the relevant time by which you assert that part of the exchange in the parliament, to which you’ve referred, represented her lying between her teeth? That’s what I want you to focus on.
Wilkinson:
I understand your honour. I believed Ms Higgins putting together all of the conversations that I’d had with her that Ms Reynolds absolutely knew that there was a serious sexual element that existed prior to that meeting on the Monday.
Richardson:
Ms Wilkinson, are you suggesting that on the 27th of January or in the interview on the 2nd of February, that Ms Higgins told you that she believed Senator Reynolds knew there was a sexual element prior to the Monday meeting?
Wilkinson:
I can’t recall right now whether it was in the five-hour interview, the two-hour interview, or the phone calls that I had to her [Higgins] in that early stage, but she always insisted that Senator Reynolds knew that there was a sexual element to what had occurred in the early hours of 23 March 2019.
Wilkinson has completed her evidence and has been excused.
• The text and heading of this post were amended on 15 December 2023 to expand and clarify the exchange.
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What we’ve heard so far today
Today in the witness box the court has heard more evidence from Ten journalist Lisa Wilkinson, going into details of her investigation and reporting of Brittany Higgins’ claims.
Bruce Lehrmann is suing Network Ten and Wilkinson for defamation over an interview with Higgins broadcast on The Project and online, which did not name him but alleged she had been raped by a Liberal staffer in 2019.
Lehrmann has denied raping Higgins and pleaded not guilty to a charge of sexual intercourse without consent. His criminal trial was abandoned due to juror misconduct and the second did not proceed due to prosecutors’ fears for Higgins’ mental health.
Here’s what we’ve heard:
• Overnight, a transcript was released of a five-hour conversation between Wilkinson, Higgins and others, which was part of the preparations for the Project interview. It included comments by Wilkinson about the Canberra political scene, which she called “sick” and “ugly as sin”.
• Lehrmann’s legal team said they would not be making any legal applications over the so-called “secret” recording of a conversation at a bar between Higgins’ lawyer and her fiance, David Sharaz, while she was giving evidence earlier this month.
• Wilkinson was challenged over her claim that she didn’t know what metadata was, in relation to an image shown to her by Higgins. She was shown tweets dating to 2015 where she referred to metadata but said that she didn’t know photographs had metadata.
• Wilkinson said 80 hours was a “very fair and reasonable” amount of time to give Lehrmann to respond to questions before the interview was broadcast.
• Lehrmann’s barrister asked Wilkinson whether his client was identifiable to some people from information in The Project’s broadcast, and Wilkinson said she had trusted Ten’s legal department in that area.
• Wilkinson said she was “in the hair and makeup department” and “largely out of the picture” when the prime minister’s office responded to questions from The Project.
• Wilkinson was asked about a text to her producer on the day of the broadcast, in which she commented that Senator Linda Reynolds was “lying through her teeth” during a parliamentary question time exchange. Wilkinson disagreed that she had not been objective about Reynolds’ role in the Higgins affair.
The court is taking a lunch break. Wilkinson will be back in the witness box around 2.15pm to face more questions about that text message.
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Wilkinson asked to identify in Hansard where she thought Reynolds was ‘lying through her teeth’
Justice Lee has called for Wilkinson to be asked to explain what she meant when she sent a text saying Senator Linda Reynolds was lying during parliamentary question time, shortly before the Project interview with Brittany Higgins was broadcast.
Wilkinson said in her text to Llewellyn: “[Senator Linda] Reynolds [was] lying through her teeth.”
She has been recalled to the witness box and has been shown the Hansard from question time on the relevant day.
Lee: “I think what you’re being asked to do was to read those, perhaps over the lunch adjournment, and then come back after lunch and identify – with precision if you would – those parts of it where you believe that you considered at the time that Senator Reynolds was ‘lying through their teeth’.”
Lee said it was “material in the circumstances” whether Wilkinson believed Reynolds was lying “less than four-and-a-half hours before the broadcast”.
The court has adjourned until 2.15pm.
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Wilkinson sent producer text saying Linda Reynolds was ‘lying through her teeth’
Lisa Wilkinson has been shown a text she sent to Llewellyn on the Monday afternoon during parliamentary question time before the broadcast which said “[Senator Linda] Reynolds [was] lying through her teeth”.
In question time they were discussing the story about Brittany Higgins which had been published by Samantha Maiden on news.com.au that morning.
The Project’s interview with Higgins was scheduled to air that night.
Richardson: “In a contest between Reynolds and Higgins, you are always going to believe Ms Higgins’ evidence, do you agree or disagree?”
Wilkinson: “Untrue.”
Richardson: “You could not be objective, I suggest, in terms of making a fair assessment of the evidence concerning the role of Minister Reynolds in this affair?”
Wilkinson: “Disagree.”
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Wilkinson says she was ‘largely out of the picture’ by the time of Llewellyn’s conversation with PMO
Wilkinson has told the court that she was “largely out of the picture” by the time her producer, Angus Llewellyn, spoke to the prime minister’s office and got a response to Higgins’ allegations.
Richardson asked her if it occurred to her that it “might be appropriate for someone from Channel Ten to go back and speak to Ms Higgins about what the government was saying”.
The court has heard that the PMO told Llewellyn, among other things, that Higgins had not been treated dismissively.
Wilkinson: “Mr Richardson, it was up to others to decide … that he should go back and speak with Ms Higgins and check what was being said about Brown and Reynolds.”
Wilkinson said at the 11th hour before broadcast “others more senior than me were making those sorts of big decisions”.
The former Sunday Project presenter said while these discussions were going on she was preparing to present the show.
Wilkinson: “On the afternoon, I would have been in the hair and makeup department and there would have been a lot of other people, so taking phone calls in an environment where other people could hear the phone call.”
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Wilkinson questioned about producer’s conversation with prime minister’s office
Wilkinson has been asked what she knew about a conversation her producer had with the prime minister’s office (PMO) before the broadcast of The Project.
Earlier in the trial her producer Angus Llewellyn gave evidence about a conversation with senior adviser Andrew Carswell from the PMO about Higgins’ treatment by Reynolds’ office.
Wilkinson said she was not told a number of facts Carswell told Llewellyn.
Richardson: “Did he tell you that [Carswell] had said [Reynolds’ chief of staff Fiona] Brown kept extensive notes?
Wilkinson: “No, I wasn’t told.”
Richardson: “Did you receive a sort of detailed summary of this call or not?
Wilkinson: “No.
Richardson: “Were you told that the spokesperson had said that Ms Higgins had not been treated dismissively and that she’d been offered support on multiple occasions? Wasn’t it important for you to have the responses from the government passed on to you by Mr Llewellyn?
Wilkinson: “The official responses, yes. “
Wilkinson said she was satisfied the government’s official response was published on The Project’s website.
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Wilkinson questioned over how identifiable Lehrmann was from The Project’s broadcast
Richardson is now asking Wilkinson how identifiable she thought Lehrmann was from the details broadcast by The Project.
Lehrmann was not named but Richardson has suggested he was identifiable because the program said the Liberal staffer worked for Reynolds, had followed Reynolds from the home affairs portfolio to the defence portfolio, and was now working in Sydney after leaving her office in March 2019.
Richardson: “Didn’t it occur to you that there would be a category of people that knew that Mr Lehrmann had moved with Minister Reynolds from her home affairs portfolio to her defence industry’s portfolio, and didn’t know about the assault allegation?”
Wilkinson: “Mr Richardson, I knew that the Channel Ten legal department was across this story, and I trusted that it was appropriate for those details to be in there.”
Richardson said a news.com.au article by Samantha Maiden did not include as many details capable of identifying Lehrmann.
Wilkinson denied that The Project’s extra detail meant they should have given Lehrmann more time to respond.
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Lisa Wilkinson defends length of timeframe given to Lehrmann for response
It was “fair and reasonable” to give Bruce Lehrmann 80 hours to respond to the allegations of rape, Wilkinson has told the federal court.
Richardson: “You could have yourself requested that Mr Lehrmann be approached earlier than Friday at 2.45pm.”
Wilkinson: “I believed 80 hours before broadcast to be a very fair and reasonable time for Mr Lehrmann to respond to us.”
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Lehrmann’s lawyer says it is ‘improbable’ Wilkinson did not know what metadata was
Following the discussion of the covert recording broadcast by Sky News Australia Lisa Wilkinson is back in the witness box.
Richardson has suggested it is “improbable” that Wilkinson did not know what metadata is – as she claimed in her evidence yesterday.
The court was shown an eight-year-old tweet sent out by Wilkinson, which referred to metadata.
Richardson: “The question was this Ms Wilkinson: having reviewed those tweets [from 2015] are you sure about your evidence yesterday that you did not know what metadata was in 2021?”
Wilkinson: “Mr Richardson, this is from eight-and-a-half years ago … What we talked about the other day … is a photo having information on it about when it was taken.”
Wilkinson said her 2015 tweets referred to phone logs and emails and search histories on browsers. “I didn’t know that photographs had metadata,” she said.
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Lehrmann’s lawyers won’t recall Higgins to give evidence over ‘secret’ recording
Bruce Lehrmann’s lawyers have told the court they will not recall Brittany Higgins to give further evidence over a so-called “secret” recording of her lawyer speaking to Higgins’s fiance, David Sharaz, at a Sydney bar.
The recording was taken of Leon Zwier and others at the Park Hyatt Lobby Bar on 4 December, and reportedly revealed the lawyer discussing how Higgins could respond to questions in cross-examination. Higgins was not said to be present.
But Lehrmann’s barrister, Steve Whybrow SC, has told the court after listening to the tape and making his own draft transcript he would not be making any submissions about it or entering it into evidence.
“Can I indicate that we won’t have any applications in these proceedings beyond being able to confirm what appears to be the accuracy of the transcripts that were broadcast,” Whybrow said.
“The quality of that 52-minute recording that was provided is not sufficient for us to be able to, in the time available, do anything more with it and make any applications in these proceedings.
“So I just wanted to let you know that we weren’t proposing to ourselves bring any applications in these proceedings to recall witnesses or call other witnesses.”
Zwier has denied coaching his client through her fiance and told news.com.au in a statement that his remarks were not intended to be passed on to Higgins.
“All my private conversations with David Sharaz and Emma Webster were on the common understanding that Brittany was under cross-examination and no one was to talk with her about the substance of her evidence or the manner in which she was giving it,” Zwier said in the statement.
Guardian Australia does not suggest that Zwier intended his advice to be passed on to Higgins.
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Federal court continues to livestream the case
This blog will cover major developments during the day. In the interests of open justice and due to significant public interest, the federal court is livestreaming this case.
You can watch the Bruce Lehrmann defamation trial live stream on YouTube here.
Lisa Wilkinson told Brittany Higgins she could cause Coalition to lose federal election
In the tape Wilkinson tells Higgins she presents a danger to the Liberal party because she could lose them the upcoming federal election.
Higgins alleged in 2019 that Bruce Lehrmann, a Liberal staffer colleague, raped her on the couch in Linda Reynolds’ office.
Lehrmann has denied allegations that he raped Higgins and his criminal trial was abandoned due to juror misconduct. A second trial did not proceed due to prosecutors’ fears for Higgins’ mental health.
Lehrmann brought the defamation case against Network Ten and journalist Lisa Wilkinson over an interview with Higgins on Ten’s The Project in which Lehrmann was not named. Network Ten and Wilkinson are defending the case.
“Look, I really like you, Brittany, but … I don’t want you to be deluded that they care about you,’’ Wilkinson said in their pre-interview conversation, according to a transcript published by the court overnight.
Higgins: “No, they don’t care, they don’t care.”
Wilkinson: “They only care about the election. They currently care about the election and you could bring it undone for them.
“That’s what they care about. Because all of their other actions don’t indicate that you’re anything other than a possible problem.”
It’s not the first time the public has heard excerpts from the meeting. Earlier in the year sections of the interview were leaked to News Corp and the Seven network, in a move the defence has described as a “calculated” and “concerted” media campaign.
Wilkinson’s barrister Sue Chrysanthou SC said at the time that selective leaks were putting “improper pressure” on her client.
“Now these media organisations are, it would appear, wholly publishing one side of the story,” she said.
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What we can expect today
Lisa Wilkinson is back today for her second day in the witness box, defending a defamation claim against her and Network Ten.
Bruce Lehrmann’s barrister Matthew Richardson SC indicated her cross-examination would take about 90 minutes today.
Overnight Wilkinson’s thoughts on key Liberal party figures and the culture of Parliament House have been revealed in a 268-page transcript, released by the federal court, of her five-hour conversation with Brittany Higgins and Higgins’s fiance David Sharaz.
In the exchange, the first meeting The Project had with the couple, Wilkinson derides the Canberra political scene as “ugly as sin” and a “sick culture” and describes herself as a “kid from Campbelltown” who wants to be a “champion for women who are being suppressed”.
Wilkinson on Parliament House: “It’s about fear, it’s about intimidation, it’s sexist, it’s, everything is implied, everything’s in secret and that’s, everything seems to operate in dark shadows, because the minute you shine a torch on any of it, it’s as ugly as sin”.
She likens Canberra’s political scene to a notorious paedophile who had secrets on powerful people.
“It’s like Jeffrey Epstein,” Wilkinson said. “Everyone’s got something on everyone else, so no one talks.”
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